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Ripcannon

how do you feel about the phrase christian identity

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity......so tell me what you think or know of this....i hold a belief i will elaborate with you after work....i've noticed in some circles they preach this...i kinda dont understand why?this religion and it almost seems used as tool from all sides...,,, ill be the first to tell you i dont know it all...{ but i damn sure try} 

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/christian-identity......

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2 minutes ago, Ripcannon said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity......so tell me what you think or know of this....i hold a belief i will elaborate with you after work....i've noticed in some circles they preach this...i kinda dont understand why?this religion and it almost seems used as tool from all sides...,,, ill be the first to tell you i dont know it all...{ but i damn sure try} 

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/christian-identity......

 

I would be a bit put back by it. Anyone claiming Adam fathered only the white race would be a bit off the center mark, and it would make for some interesting conversation. In all honesty, I have not put a lot of thought or research into that group.

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As I told Ripcannon, despite having served six terms as the C.O. of a state-wide militia; having worked in immigration law for six years and having quite a bit of lobbying / political experience, this subject is my strong suit.

 

First and foremost, there is something called "Christian Identity."  Christian Identity is NOT a denomination. The ADL and the SPLC don't really have a clue as to what the subject is all about.  Then again, they do.

 

During the missing years in Christ's life (ones not mentioned in the Bible) he converted many people (as did Paul) in Great Britain.  In British history, they are well aware of their historical roots.  So, when our forefathers came to this country in 1620, they were well aware of their destiny and their identity.  In II Samuel 7 : 10 we read:

 

"Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime"

 

That certainly could not be that sand pit in the Middle East.  You already had people who were Israelites living in and around there.  And so,  the white, Anglo Saxon, Germanic, Scandinavian, Celtic, Teutonic and related peoples  naturally gravitated to what is now the United States and established a country that served as the regathering spot for biblical Israel AND along with that they established foundational principles never offered to any citizenry in the history of nations.  As foundational principles we asserted in unalienable Rights.  Those are Rights that were given to every person by their Creator (their God, whomever they deem that to be) and are above the reach of government.  Based on that model, the United States became the greatest nation in the annals of history AND we are currently the longest lasting government in recorded history.  

 

As per the Bible, Israel forgot her Identity and with each passing generation, we get further away from God and what made our nation great.  The facts remain:  ALL of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and the Constitution were white.  Furthermore, contrary to the swill you read condemning "Identity" (which is not a religious denomination) we invited people from every country on the face of the earth to come to America.  But, America was still the regathering spot for biblical Israel and only white Christians were afforded citizenship.  No amount of political jockeying can ever change these facts.

 

Due to the influence of non-Christians in our country AND the issue of slavery, America was pushed further and further from its destiny.  Almost as fast as America came into being, there were groups like the Illuminati that wanted to subvert the principles upon which America was built AND create a one world religion and one world race. Powerful forces would pretend to be on the side of Christian patriots, but they were conducting effective political guerrilla warfare.  Let me give you an example:

 

In 1957,  Rep. Thomas Abernethy of Mississippi read a the following quotation from it into the Congressional Record:

 

"We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial tensions. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by whites, we can mold them to the program of the Communist Party. In America we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will endeavor to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negroes. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will deliver America to our cause."  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Racial_Program_for_the_Twentieth_Century

 

Now the strategies are very real.  It was and is a primary way for the left to promote and control the race issue.  But, the quote that Abernethy got conned into reading into the Congressional Record was a hoax.  So, since there was no British Communist Party and no Israel Cohen, then Americans had to believe that the strategies were a hoax as well.  But, they aren't.  

 

I'll let you think about that and then come back with another round until you fully understand Christian Identity.

 

 

 

 

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In the history of our country a lot of people have believed that the white people were the Israelites of the Old Testament with prophecies that apply to the United States.  In biblical history, the notion of whites as biblical Israel has been expressly known since at least somewhere between 150 and 350 AD according to the lost Gospel of Phillip which was found in 1945.  

 

Herbert W. Armstrong, born in 1892,  taught this same notion that whites were biblical Israel.  According to Wikipedia:

 

"His teachings included the interpretation of biblical prophecy in light of British Israelism...

 

The book The United States and Britain in Prophecy was published in 1954. It became the most well-known and requested church publication, with over six million copies distributed.[35] In this book, Armstrong makes the claim that the peoples of the United States, the British Commonwealth nations, and the nations of Northwestern Europe are descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.[36] This belief, called British Israelism, formed the central basis of the theology of the Worldwide Church of God...

 

On January 5, 1968, the Radio Church of God was renamed the Worldwide Church of God.[39] Shortly before, the church began to broadcast a television version of The World Tomorrow.[26] The program would eventually expand to 382 U.S. television stations, and 36 television outlets internationally, dwarfing televangelists Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, and Jim Bakker."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_W._Armstrong

 

Well, Armstrong passed away in 1986; his church discarded his teachings and renamed the ministry; they are now a shell of their former selves.  Of this God had said:

 

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."   Genesis 12 : 3

 

In my opinion, God kept his word.

 

At the same time that Armstrong was building up his ministry, other groups were growing as well.  Howard Rand, who was born in 1889.  A lawyer, inventor, and  three-time candidate for Massachusetts state office on the Prohibition Party ticket he headed the former Anglo-Saxon Federation of America and began working with Destiny Publishers.  With the help of Raymond Capt, a biblical archaeologist, they managed to keep the real faith alive.  That effort is still alive and going:

 

http://www.destinypublishers.com/store/author/howard-b-rand-llb

 

Somewhere in the 1970s  fundamentalist Christians, former Mormons and sects of British Israelites began operating independently.  They would eventually break into two primary sects:  those who believe in the seed-line doctrine as it's called and those who opposed it.  Most British Israelites and the people who used to support the World Wide Church of God opposed the seedline doctrine.  To do the Cliff's Notes, seedliners believe that Satan has a literal, physical offspring.  Now, this is where the holier than thous throw their hands in the air, proclaim it to be heresy, and even "anti-semitic."    But, hold it... wait for it.  Not only was the seedline doctrine found in the Gospel of Philip, but the Jews also had their seedline adherents:

 

"Yes, the Talmud of Judaism and other Rabbinic literature the Kabballah and Targums as well, do offer confirmation as being the sources of the doctrine of seed-line. Some confirmation of this Talmudic involvement follows..."

 

https://ensignmessage.com/articles/the-seed-line-issue-its-impact-on-israel/

 

Ouch!  I'm just getting started.

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Ripcannon said:

 

5 hours ago, The Resister said:

As per the Bible, Israel forgot her Identity and with each passing generation, we get further away from God and what made our nation great.  The facts remain:  ALL of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation and the Constitution were white.  Furthermore, contrary to the swill you read condemning "Identity" (which is not a religious denomination) we invited people from every country on the face of the earth to come to America.  But, America was still the regathering spot for biblical Israel and only white Christians were afforded citizenship.  No amount of political jockeying can ever change these facts.

 

There is a tremendous amount of info in the top wiki link, and I am unsure if we are talking about all of this being involved here where you are referring to in the use of "Identity" where I highlighted it in red. Are we talking about all of the stuff in the wiki article rolled into one train of thought, or is this a specific portion of it?

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The seedline doctrine not being the "white supremacist" boogeyman that those screaming racism made it out to be, we get closer to "Christian Identity."  

 

The 1960s and 1970s saw a number of fundamentalist Christians that wanted to reconcile the Bible with science.  John Wilson had done is lectures on "Our Israelitish Origin" (which was then known as Anglo - Israelism)  Wikipedia says:

 

"...he claimed that the peoples of Israel had made their way across the continent of Europe to the British Isles. He brought evidence to bear from Ptolemy and works by Diodorus, supporting the earlier history of the Israelites. He studied the works of Rawlinson, Herodotus, and Josephus, and quoted extensively from Sharon Turner.

His lectures attracted the attention of, among others, Charles Piazzi Smyth, Astronomer Royal for Scotland and one of the first Pyramidologists.

It was in Wilson's house in St Pancras, London, that the Anglo-Israel Association was founded in 1874"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wilson_(historian)

 

About this same time, Walter Winchell a professor of paleontology and geology at the University of Michigan was busy writing books like Preadamites (1878) and the book Reconciliation of Science and Religion (1877) that was giving rise to explaining the existence of men prior to the creation of Adam.  The Bible had Adam man being created maybe 6500 years or so ago and scientists could prove men were on this earth long before that.

 

In the 1920s, Anglo - Israelism  (which became what Americans call British Israelism) began gaining acceptance.  Then the scientific community was adding to the conversation with facts that Adam was not the first man (nor does the Bible claim such.)  

 

By the 1970s a number of Christians had mixed Anglo - Israelism with fundamental Christianity and some of the more outspoken people came to the forefront.  Wesley Swift is credited with being among those who conceived the "Christian Identity" label.  It was here that certain precepts were co-opted by the white supremacist community and the left began to exploit the supposed white supremacy roots of "Christian Identity."  Any and all connections, whether real or imagined, have been conjured up to make it appear that American Anglo - Israelism became the de facto religion of white supremacists.  To be accurate, however, Anglo Israelism was not known by very many white supremacists until the late 1980s.

 

A few white supremacists were Anglo - Israelites / British Israelites... but they were few and far between as most mainstream churches in America already looked down on inter-racial marriage (which remained illegal until 1967) so there was not a perceived "need" for  white supremacists to justify their positions with a Bible.  

 

And now, we're getting closer to modern times.

 

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, BuryTheHatchet said:

 

 

There is a tremendous amount of info in the top wiki link, and I am unsure if we are talking about all of this being involved here where you are referring to in the use of "Identity" where I highlighted it in red. Are we talking about all of the stuff in the wiki article rolled into one train of thought, or is this a specific portion of it?

 

I don't understand what your post is about.  My posts are an historical account that debunk everything Wikipedia is alleging about "Christian Identity" and then, when we get to the end of the road, you will see how those who cooked up this cockamamie "Christian Identity" stuff in the media are...  well, I don't want to spoil it for you.

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5 minutes ago, The Resister said:

 

I don't understand what your post is about.  My posts are an historical account that debunk everything Wikipedia is alleging about "Christian Identity" and then, when we get to the end of the road, you will see how those who cooked up this cockamamie "Christian Identity" stuff in the media are...  well, I don't want to spoil it for you.

 

My post was basically a question if you were covering the whole wiki article on "Christian Identity." Your reply answered my question...thanks!

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I joined a bible study group several years ago. They used the Ferrar Fenton bible. 

 

I came to understand their views were not mine. 

 

For one thing, they believe God created the Black race (and all others) as a shadow of Himself and that these creations were only the hunter gathers.

 

When God realized He had not created anyone to farm, He created Adam, a WHITE man made in His image. He gave Adam dominion over the earth & everything in it as a shepherd cares for his flock ( a pre-image of Jesus caring for His flock, Believers). 

 

Now, as I stated... THIS is what they tried to teach me!  My response was 

“then white people failed because if we are commanded by God to CARE for the earth & everything in it INCLUDING THE BLACK MAN, then we have failed. “

 

I personally do NOT support this interpretation. 

 

I see God creating different races because He loves diversity and He loves us and He wants us to LOVE EACH OTHER AS MUCH AS HE DOES but we are in flesh so we can never be perfect like Him. 

 

Just my 2-cents

 

 

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When we get to modern times, the waters get murky.  Anglo Israelites, British Israelites, and then "Christian Identity"  all got thrown into one big melting pot.  To make matters worse, "Christian Identity" assumed British Israel trimmings and was not only co-opted by white supremacists, but pagans, nazis, atheists, and anyone else that wanted to use the Bible as a pretext to go after Jews,  justify their intolerance of blacks or anyone else they didn't like.  

 

Those professional political propaganda prostitutes at the top of the food chain use "Christian Identity" as a tool.  Their best adherents have figured out how to utilize the emotions of the unenlightened to keep people charged up on identity politics like the immigration issue.  They stomp their feet and accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being what they are.  Sun Tzu once stated:

 

"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them."

 

I'm going to get personal with you for a moment.  This board is losing members over this thread.  Somehow, I'm the racist.  Not one sentence so far can possibly be construed as "racist" unless pointing out the facts of the origins of the seedline doctrine did not originate with white supremacy, but has an historical basis in Christianity AND Judaism.  

 

If you were talking to someone from the 1960s through the 1990s or so and said "Christian Identity" the connotations would be very different than what they are today.  What they call "Christian Identity" today is a sick joke.  It is warring tribes of ex cons and gang members with little to NO understanding of the Bible.  I went on this one site operated by some dipwad by the last name of Finck.  I got on his discussion board and when someone asked about the origin of the various races, I answered the question.  What I got back was Finck stepping in to tell people I was a pro-Jewish race traitor parroting the lies of liberals... and I'm here where people read the same, identical postings and come to the conclusion that I am a racist.  No, the real racists are bitching about this thread because it debunks what the left says AND it calls out the current major players who have subverted a religious point of view so that it is impossible to discuss it.

 

I lasted one day on Finck's site before having it out with him.  I want all of you to know how those animals treat each other. Here are a few examples of how they treat each other:

 

http://www.whitenationalist.org/forum/showthread.php?1794-Phillip-Morrow-Ministries

 

http://whitenationalist.org/forum/showthread.php?871-William-Finck-Christian-Pastor

 

http://zogbots.org/jeromyvisser

 

https://boards.christogenea.org/forum/christian-identity-directions/answering-our-detractors/49399-eli-james-lies-about-lying

 

My parting words:

 

In 1783, Ezra Stiles wrote The United States elevated to Glory and Honor. Some quotations from Stiles’ opus:

“I shall enlarge no further upon the primary sense and literal accomplishment of this and numerous other prophecies respecting both Jews and Gentiles, in the latter day glory of the church. For I have assumed the text, only as introductory to a discourse upon the political welfare of God’s American Israel; and as allusively prophetic of the future prosperity and splendor of the United States.
 

Our degree of population is such as to give us reason to expect that this will become a great people. It is probable that within a century from our independence the sun will shine on fifty million of inhabitants in the United States. This will be a great, a very great nation, nearly equal to half Europe. Already has our colonization extended down the Ohio and to Koskaseah on the Mississippi. And if the present ratio of increase should be rather diminished in four of the other settlements, yet an accelerated multiplication will attend our general propagation, and overspread the whole territory westward for ages. So that before the millennium, the English settlements in America, may become more numerous millions, than that greatest dominion on earth, the Chinese Empire. Should this prove a future fact, how applicable would be the text, when the Lord shall have made his American Israel, high above all nations which He hath made, in numbers, and in praise, and in name, and in honor.”

 

The people who have attempted to silently co-opt the beliefs of our forefathers (and their predecessors) are not Christian and they have turned Christianity into a farce.  Their presupposed claims to any historical connection to the Anglo - Israelism that existed up until the early 2000s is pure fantasy on their part.  

 

But, those who find fault with the seedline doctrine need to know that Christian Identity adherents did not invent it.  So, if you have a problem with that position, you have access to its real originators.  For those misapplying the Scripture for a political gain, they are insignificant - and if not for their carefully placed minions in politically convenient positions, they probably would not exist.

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17 minutes ago, ImTexan said:

I joined a bible study group several years ago. They used the Ferrar Fenton bible. 

 

I came to understand their views were not mine. 

 

For one thing, they believe God created the Black race (and all others) as a shadow of Himself and that these creations were only the hunter gathers.

 

When God realized He had not created anyone to farm, He created Adam, a WHITE man made in His image. He gave Adam dominion over the earth & everything in it as a shepherd cares for his flock ( a pre-image of Jesus caring for His flock, Believers). 

 

Now, as I stated... THIS is what they tried to teach me!  My response was 

“then white people failed because if we are commanded by God to CARE for the earth & everything in it INCLUDING THE BLACK MAN, then we have failed. “

 

I personally do NOT support this interpretation. 

 

I see God creating different races because He loves diversity and He loves us and He wants us to LOVE EACH OTHER AS MUCH AS HE DOES but we are in flesh so we can never be perfect like Him. 

 

Just my 2-cents

 

 

 

So, you're telling me you quit not because you could not show them their position was wrong, but because you disagreed with them at an emotional level?

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10 hours ago, Ripcannon said:

 

I would say some of what the SPLC states is slanderous.  Bertrand Comparet was a Bible scholar.  I wonder how he'd feel if half of that were true?  I'm not saying the guy was right by any means, but again, Comparet did not invent the seedline doctrine and it would surprise me if he ever met a real life white supremacist in his life.

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21 minutes ago, The Resister said:

 

So, you're telling me you quit not because you could not show them their position was wrong, but because you disagreed with them at an emotional level?

 

No, I never said that. You are assuming much.  You accuse me of an emotional response in an insulting tone which is why I try to avoid you. 

 

I have my own beliefs formed from decades of study and praying and research.  There is no one denomination which believes as I do. Because I have the evidence of Yeshua in my life which I won’t get into here, I believe I know what is right for my relationship, my PERSONAL relationship, with Yeshua HaMashiach. 

 

The group fell apart on its own. There were only 5 of us. Two married couples and me. 

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7 hours ago, ImTexan said:

 

No, I never said that. You are assuming much.  You accuse me of an emotional response in an insulting tone which is why I try to avoid you. 

 

I have my own beliefs formed from decades of study and praying and research.  There is no one denomination which believes as I do. Because I have the evidence of Yeshua in my life which I won’t get into here, I believe I know what is right for my relationship, my PERSONAL relationship, with Yeshua HaMashiach. 

 

The group fell apart on its own. There were only 5 of us. Two married couples and me. 

 

I never assumed anything.  I asked you a question based upon the information you shared with me.  

 

Actually I had the same problem.  So last year I invited some friends over and we have decided to start our own denomination.  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Joshua Blessed said:

13001058_468747953315083_7961502977437007779_n.jpg

#1 Yahweh saves ! .jpg

 

So you have a monopoly on understanding?  What does your silliness have to do with the topic at hand?  How is it helpful?  How does it add to this discussion?  For that matter, what does it matter?  All religion is false and you have all the answers?

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Posted (edited)

If we compare the Bible to science, we find we have a real dilemma.  Mankind is many years older than the biblical chronology of Adam.  Adding insult to injury, most any third grader could pick apart the theory that all mankind descended from Adam.  Case in point.

 

God created Adam and Eve.  Eve had two sons:  Cain and Abel.  Cain slew Abel and God banished Cain to the land of Nod where Cain took a wife. See Genesis chapter 4.  Where was this land of Nod and where did Cain's wife come from?   These people did not come from Adam as Adam's descendants are accounted for in the 5th chapter of Genesis.

 

The real deal is, and most Bible scholars realize this, is that according to the 5th chapter of Genesis, the Bible makes it plain that it is not a book about all the people of this world. The Bible says that "This is book of the generations of Adam."   The word generations is defined as "descent, I.E. family; (fig.) history: - birth, generations." # 8435 in the Hebrew Dictionary of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

 

All of Adam's descendants are accounted for in the fifth of chapter of Genesis.  So, there is a big area of discussion there, but what it really going on boils down to this:

 

The people on either side of Christianity all want to lay claim to the title of biblical Israel.  I personally feel that the whites have the greater claim (that based upon researching the matter in a secular manner.)  The Jews, at best, are related to Judah and still do not constitute the whole of Israel.  But, they are not the only players in the game.

 

Back in about 1987 PBS aired a special about the civil rights movement.  It was entitled "Eyes on the Prize."  I used to think, how odd.  What was the "prize?"  I've already shown in earlier posts how many people accepted the premise that the white people constituted God's servant people, the Israelites.  We read Genesis and see all that stuff about generations (offspring) and who begat who (or is it whom???)  We realize it's something about family.  But, wait, what about this eyes on the prize stuff?  Turns out black people want to lay claim to the real promised land:

 

The Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ

 The Israelite School of Universal Practical Knowledge (ISUPK)

Nation of Yahweh

 United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors

 

There you go.  The "prize" was the promised land and the above groups are the black people's equivalent of Christian Identity.  And they aren't the only ones.  There is Pagan Yahwism:

 

http://www.lessonfromthepast.com/?p=1139

 

Even in all of that, there are only two groups of people that worry me.  I fear the group that keeps tabs on the whites and blacks without revealing what their ulterior motives are AND I fear those who try to censor this discussion by stomping their feet, making baseless accusations that I'm a racist, and trying to ban anyone who dares to have the conversation.  It is those people that want control over others.  That is where the danger is.

 

 

Edited by The Resister
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it can sound pretty racist bro...But i understand that it always sounds that way do to the fact anytime race in america is discussed it comes off racist...i will point out i was raised christian and i hold the morals but im not christian if that makes any sense....hell at this point ive read the Quran more then the bible so i guess by definition ima pegan....i'd also like to point out i love your facts/veiwpoint...the "christian identity" as a movement is racist...Christian Identity is a racist, anti-Semitic, and white supremacist interpretation of Christianity.....but thats my ignorant opinion...im with ya resister all good stuff

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3 minutes ago, Ripcannon said:

it can sound pretty racist bro...But i understand that it always sounds that way do to the fact anytime race in america is discussed it comes off racist...i will point out i was raised christian and i hold the morals but im not christian if that makes any sense....hell at this point ive read the Quran more then the bible so i guess by definition ima pegan....i'd also like to point out i love your facts/veiwpoint...the "christian identity" as a movement is racist...Christian Identity is a racist, anti-Semitic, and white supremacist interpretation of Christianity.....but thats my ignorant opinion...im with ya resister all good stuff

 

 

The problem with that blanket statement is that the original groups calling themselves Christian Identity were not anti-semitic because they have a legitimate claim to being descended from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob / Israel.  The fruit loops trying to usurp the name and doing things that should be an embarrassment to Christians, white people and even Americans in general are fakes, frauds, phonies, and it forces me to begin looking for some other name to identify myself by without anyone ever mistaking me for an associate of trash like William Finck.

 

What this thread proved to me is that the militia is full of people that agree with a ONE WORLD RELIGION.  So, they accuse people of racism for discussing religion and they don't even bother to become a part of the discussion.  I've made it plain to all of them:

 

I don't believe in forcing my religion down anyone's throat.  You come onto a discussion board and don't like a conversation, don't participate.  I see absolute B.S. being posted on this board every day, but it's not worth me arguing with the OP over and it's not worth trying to censor people so I don't go off whining to the mods and admins about every offensive thread.  That is antithetical to what someone in the militia does.  

 

I have neither the power or inclination to force people to adopt my personal religious beliefs.  But, just because I know the world won't adopt my beliefs, like everyone else, I believe I have the Right to state those beliefs.  It is by finding common ground and finding mutual areas of understanding that we can agree to stand together.  Those who did not like my thread want the very thing the militia was created to fight against.  You and I have some common ground and you have indicated to me that if the excrement ever interacted with the electric oscillating device, you'd be there to have my back.  So, this thread was not a wasted exercise.

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9 minutes ago, Ripcannon said:

heck yeah bro...i love the fact you have a opinion and are civil about it plus you share your opinion and usually the facts that help you lead to your conclusion....you shared alot i didnt know and now that i do know im finding out more......https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Christian_Identity

 

I operated under that assumption from your link.  Boy was I disappointed!  The "Identity" crowd does NOT believe America to be the New Jerusalem.  

 

Insofar as white people believing they are Israelites, I hear Glenn Beck is on board with the basic message.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, The Resister said:

Boy was I disappointed! 

i came acrossed it...kinda thought it was funny...just about everything i read on this is all the way pro or all the way against...id like to get a outside perspective...so im looking and talking to both sides(small forums)...im not trying to derail the thread im just trying to interact while doing a bunch of other things...weather i agree or disagree with you is irrelevant...as you said you got the right to say and think w/e...we agree to much to fight about this in my opinion...https://www.watchman.org/profiles/pdf/christianidentityprofile.pdf  this is a awesome link 

Edited by Ripcannon

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