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wquon

Best Value Gear & Guns (this is where you start)

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Hello & welcome.

 

In todays world theres alot of talk about gear and guns. lots of opinions, lots of misinformation.

 

I've attached a list that goes over weapons, armor, & belt. if you want the quick version, go to the pic.

Let me take a hot minute & go over the choices & upgrades. I will be stating things people dont like (if this is you, please move on)

 

FBI has determined the 9mm is the best "overall" pistol round. It is a NATO round. It is the most popular round, making up more than 30% of pistol ammo out there.

Glock is the standard. Get some sights with tritium (I recommend Fision sights) & keep everything else stock. Accessories are made for glock 1st, so its easy to find stuff.

Glock models 19, 45, & 17 are all 9mm. All can take glock 17 magazines.

 

While surefire is the best out there, stream lights are a good value. I have 2 weapon light listed. Carrying spare batteries is a good idea. The rifle light takes CR123s or an18659.

Links to rechargable batteries for them;

CR123s https://www.batteryjunction.com/nitecore-nl166.html 1

18650 https://www.batteryjunction.com/nitecore-nl1835.html

they also have 18650 for those low temp regions https://www.batteryjunction.com/nitecore-nl1829-ltp-low-temp-rechargeable-18650.html

 

AR is in the top 3 most used rifles in the world. PSA is the lowest standard I would go. If you are going to be putting alot of rounds through & taking multiple training courses upgrade to a Daniel Defense. The closer the gas block is to you on the barrel, the quicker the gun will wear down parts. rifle length is impractical for room clearing, mid-length is the best all around.

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/modern-sporting-rifles.html?caliber=6&mounting_system=390&rifle_gas_system=102

 

Here's my post about ballistic plates, https://www.mymilitia.com/forums/topic/63915-where-to-begin-with-plates/  I'm not going to go over that again here.

I'm of the mindset of fight light. During my deployment I had neck guard, shoulder guards, side plates, nut flap, ballistic diaper (idk real name, thats what we called it), and secondary kevlar. Not to mention all the other crap we had to carry. The Veritas carrier is great because its scalable. You can have the options of traditional sides & even get pouches for side plates. The way the front is setup you can even attach chest rigs like the spiritus M4. https://www.spiritussystems.com/micro-fight-chassis-mk4/

 

Speaking of the spiritus M4. The M4 is highly modular & allows you  to also have a stand alone chest rig which serves 2 purposes & saves money in the long run. The KWYIs are one of the best mag pouches out there (along with scorpion & taco pouches) and the cheapest (compared to the other 2).  Having just a single row of mags on your carrier if going to allow you to get close to the ground, so don't go putting alotta crap on there. If you're running the M4 as a chest rig, you can throw some more mags in its front pocket.

here's a vid of some of the accessories of the M4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Igh7_IQs_4 

 

Hydration is a must. Source makes some great bladders & they range from 1-3L. Make sure to choose wisely depending on your climate, activity, & mission. There's alot of packs out there, make sure they have quality stitching, zippers, & hook/loop (velcro).

 

Blue Alpha Belts are top tier. For an extra $40-80 you can upgrade to a belt that has molle & a D-ring (if you need them). I like these belts because they sandwich your belt loops, so its not pushing your pants around while running or creating hot spots & making you sweat because it too wide. Its easy to put on & off, & store. They're hand made in the USA.

 

IFAK (individual first aid) pouches are all over the place, alot of companies. Make sure its in a place you can reach it with both hands & that it isn't going to impede your movements.

AR500 has had the best value "gut" (med kit for IFAKs) that I've seen, most are twice the price or more. There are also many TQs (tourniquets) out there. The CAT (combat action TQ) is probably one of the most used & the one I'm most familiar with. Some dont work as advertised so do your homework.

 

Safariland is, again, one of the best brands. The ALS holster has a thumb button to release the pistol. It's very secure, & very intuitive. Getting the QLS would be of help taking it off or switch to something else. Stay away from drop legs, they move all over the place when running & doing drills.  at most go with a mid drop. see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQIi3SsdT-Y&t=41s The one I listed below covers the rear site. I've had holster in the past that didnt & my rear site has been knocked out of zero a couple times. If you were to get the holster before you got the light for your pistol, it would still retain the gun.

 

If you have a HAM license go get the radio that you know will do all the things. Baofeng uv5r is popular in milsim, militia, & preparedness communities. Its a good value for what it is.

the push to talk mic mounted on ones shoulder is easy to get to, & if you're using an earpiece or a hearing protection headset, you can plug right into it.

 

At the top of the pick you can see the price for all of the gear is under $3k & it weighs less than 40lbs. I couldnt find exact weights to some of these & my home scales battery is dead, so I gave my best guess. The pricing I over estimated much of it. Some things, such as the water bladder & IFAK) have wide variety of price so I went somewhere in the middle.

 

I hope this was helpful & a good place to either create a standard in your group, or just help out folks that are new to all this.

 

 

 

best value gear.png

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Anybody got a list that people can AFFORD to buy?   Remember that pistol/ammo belts and suspenders were worn for 80 years before molle "high tech"  gear came on the scene.  Sure, I think it's  an improvement over the older stuff... but like most everything, "evolution" comes in baby steps, so it's not like a night  and day difference.  Not trying to start trouble, but how many of us are going to be "operators"?  Now, for those that are, go for it, but the everyday militiaman/woman probably won't need, or devote enough time to be proficient with high-speed gear.

 

On a slightly different note, but not totally unrelated, the US soldier is probably the most loaded down fighter in the world.  As Militia, I think we need to re-evaluate how we approach combat.  Look at the Viet Cong, or today's Taliban fighters.  Your mission will dictate what you need, but that's exactly where we need to take a fresh look at things.  I've long advocated for a set of tactics that favor a "shoot and scoot/hit and run" approach rather than US Army style moves.  I also think we should be familiar with the US tactics, if we would need to work with them, but it's doubtful we would ever be used as first line assault troops by the Army.   They rely on fire/air support, for example, which we probably won't have: our  whole doctrine needs to be looked at, I think personally. 

 

Just glancing at the above list, I personally would settle for a $500.- M&P Sport II rifle, and standard GI spec mags (durable, lightweight and cheap) .  Why?  The firepower of most any semi-auto rifle will be about the same, as will magazine capacity.  Just make sure it's reliable (I like Sport II - other makes are just as good but won't put you in debt forever).  Taking an axe to the full, high tech list would save you enough to get some night vision.  If you're going to invest in plates, get at least level IV.  As I understand it, anything less will not stop rifle rounds: If you're going into real combat, why hump the weight if it won't do the job?

 

Just my two cents on the matter...  but I wholeheartedly agree we need to develop a "functional" list: one that won't break the bank, but gets the job done.

Edited by John Last

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50 minutes ago, John Last said:

Anybody got a list that people can AFFORD to buy?   Remember that pistol/ammo belts and suspenders were worn for 80 years before molle "high tech"  gear came on the scene.  Sure, I think it's  an improvement over the older stuff... but like most everything, "evolution" comes in baby steps, so it's not like a night  and day difference.  Not trying to start trouble, but how many of us are going to be "operators"?  Now, for those that are, go for it, but the everyday militiaman/woman probably won't need, or devote enough time to be proficient with high-speed gear.

 

On a slightly different note, but not totally unrelated, the US soldier is probably the most loaded down fighter in the world.  As Militia, I think we need to re-evaluate how we approach combat.  Look at the Viet Cong, or today's Taliban fighters.  Your mission will dictate what you need, but that's exactly where we need to take a fresh look at things.  I've long advocated for a set of tactics that favor a "shoot and scoot/hit and run" approach rather than US Army style moves.  I also think we should be familiar with the US tactics, if we would need to work with them, but it's doubtful we would ever be used as first line assault troops by the Army.   They rely on fire/air support, for example, which we probably won't have: our  whole doctrine needs to be looked at, I think personally. 

 

Just glancing at the above list, I personally would settle for a $500.- M&P Sport II rifle, and standard GI spec mags (durable, lightweight and cheap) .  Why?  The firepower of most any semi-auto rifle will be about the same, as will magazine capacity.  Just make sure it's reliable (I like Sport II - other makes are just as good but won't put you in debt forever).  Taking an axe to the full, high tech list would save you enough to get some night vision.  If you're going to invest in plates, get at least level IV.  As I understand it, anything less will not stop rifle rounds: If you're going into real combat, why hump the weight if it won't do the job?

 

Just my two cents on the matter...  but I wholeheartedly agree we need to develop a "functional" list: one that won't break the bank, but gets the job done.

 

 

Yup that is why I said "guide".  There are ways to cut the budget down even more.  Like surplus LBE gear, magazines and pouches.  There are 3 or 4 good quality entry AR-15 rifles that hover around the 500 retail mark.  Good comment.

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Great list.  Certainly adjustable for philosophy.  But, covers the basics of what one may need.

 

As far as affordability goes... the nice thing about these types of things is that you don't have to go out and buy everything at once.  These are items you can accumulate gradually over time.  

 

PSA is a great value rifle and rugged enough to get the job done for the average user.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Vortex strike fire 2 ....170 dollars 

Great rugged red dot that runs

 

Sig romeo 5 or holosun ..  120 

Great entry level red dot with nvd rating 

 

Bushnell 1 to 4 ar scope 150 ish range 

Excellent school for short to medium engagements

 

I'll drop the links in today

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Author of the topic Posted
23 hours ago, John Last said:

Anybody got a list that people can AFFORD to buy?   Remember that pistol/ammo belts and suspenders were worn for 80 years before molle "high tech"  gear came on the scene.  Sure, I think it's  an improvement over the older stuff... but like most everything, "evolution" comes in baby steps, so it's not like a night  and day difference.  Not trying to start trouble, but how many of us are going to be "operators"?  Now, for those that are, go for it, but the everyday militiaman/woman probably won't need, or devote enough time to be proficient with high-speed gear.

This is affordable. There's a difference between cheap crap & value. yes, you could train for work-arounds for dated gear but why develop training scars?

 

1st & foremost; If someone is brand new to all this I would say go train at a reputable company (which will easily be north of $300). they will allow you to rent or borrow guns & gear. with that experience one should have a better idea of what they need. ammo requirements for those classes are usually around 1k rounds, which is another $200-500+ depending on the round.

 

guns, chest rig, & a belt would be ideal, but ive met too many that get bent our of shape over armor yet arent physically fit enough to walk around (let alone do movement drills) in 30lb+ of gear. basic weapons, ammo, food , & water will get one to 30 lbs quick. this & 4G warfare should answer youre 2nd paragraph.

 

as for your 3rd paragraph, theres so much to break off there I'll refrain & chalk it up to "thats your opinion".

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Affordable varies from person to person.  

 

Ultimately, circumstance and philosophy dictate load out.  What is ideal and what you have are also different things.  

 

If all you have is a hunting jacket, a rifle, some mags, a ruck sack, hiking boots, and a canteen... that's better than nothing at all.  Heck, even a hunting bow is better than nothing if you have to defend your life, property, etc.   Is that an ideal load out?  Under some circumstances, sure.  Under all circumstances?  No.  Can you make it work... you do what you have to do.  A semi-auto rifle with a NATO caliber is ideal.  But, if all you have is a .308 bolt rifle or a hunting lever action rifle... use what you have if that's all you have.  

 

The list provided above is a solid guide to a capable and flexible load out.    

 

I don't run a belt setup.  I don't typically carry a pistol.  That's me though.  I have a belt with pouches.  I can toss a pistol holster on my Hank's Leather belt if I want to.  I have a thigh rig as well.  My belt holds up my pants... that's all it is there for.  I also wear suspenders... I am challenged in the buttocks dept.  

 

I've been slowly planning and purchasing my equipment for several years.  I'm not wealthy.  I have a family and other expenses like any other person.  

 

Acquisition can be gradual and catered to your specific needs and circumstances.  

 

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Author of the topic Posted

@ RevRifleman same here on the budget. I made a similar spreadsheet for myself & have finally been getting stuff over the past 2 years.

 

"its about having a modern day musket, and the equipment to complement that" – Lucas at T.rex arms

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On 1/26/2020 at 6:08 PM, John Last said:

Anybody got a list that people can AFFORD to buy?   Remember that pistol/ammo belts and suspenders were worn for 80 years before molle "high tech"  gear came on the scene.  Sure, I think it's  an improvement over the older stuff... but like most everything, "evolution" comes in baby steps, so it's not like a night  and day difference.  Not trying to start trouble, but how many of us are going to be "operators"?  Now, for those that are, go for it, but the everyday militiaman/woman probably won't need, or devote enough time to be proficient with high-speed gear.

 

On a slightly different note, but not totally unrelated, the US soldier is probably the most loaded down fighter in the world.  As Militia, I think we need to re-evaluate how we approach combat.  Look at the Viet Cong, or today's Taliban fighters.  Your mission will dictate what you need, but that's exactly where we need to take a fresh look at things.  I've long advocated for a set of tactics that favor a "shoot and scoot/hit and run" approach rather than US Army style moves.  I also think we should be familiar with the US tactics, if we would need to work with them, but it's doubtful we would ever be used as first line assault troops by the Army.   They rely on fire/air support, for example, which we probably won't have: our  whole doctrine needs to be looked at, I think personally. 

 

Just glancing at the above list, I personally would settle for a $500.- M&P Sport II rifle, and standard GI spec mags (durable, lightweight and cheap) .  Why?  The firepower of most any semi-auto rifle will be about the same, as will magazine capacity.  Just make sure it's reliable (I like Sport II - other makes are just as good but won't put you in debt forever).  Taking an axe to the full, high tech list would save you enough to get some night vision.  If you're going to invest in plates, get at least level IV.  As I understand it, anything less will not stop rifle rounds: If you're going into real combat, why hump the weight if it won't do the job?

 

Just my two cents on the matter...  but I wholeheartedly agree we need to develop a "functional" list: one that won't break the bank, but gets the job done.

Very smart insight

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9 hours ago, wquon said:

before advocating for cheap gun, some may want to look at this (from 5 - 5:20) & keep in mind there are others who just havent went down yet,

Yeah it happens, and more frequently than people think. I work with a few guys that have rifles made by companies that no longer exist or have been resurrected by the skin of their teeth (Adams Arms) and they know that is anything even remotely proprietary breaks they are boned.  That being said I don't think companies like PSA are in danger, and when guys ask that's usually where I point them.  PSA continues to maintain their big sellers and bring out new products like that Glock clone that's going to drive the fan bois nuts and the 9mm AK that has em slobbering.

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PSA:  We exist for 'common use' not for profit.

 

I've never had an issue with my PSA.  Probably about 1k rounds through it over the course of the year.  I like my Ruger 556 as well.  I probably have a tad north of 2k through my Ruger without any issues on account of the rifle.  I usually put 100 rounds down range per visit.  Though on some occasions I go through 300 rounds switching between targets from 25-50-100 yards.  

 

I have no problem recommending a PSA rifle to anyone looking to get an AR at an affordable price point.  

 

 

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12 hours ago, RevRifleman said:

PSA:  We exist for 'common use' not for profit.

 

I've never had an issue with my PSA.  Probably about 1k rounds through it over the course of the year.  I like my Ruger 556 as well.  I probably have a tad north of 2k through my Ruger without any issues on account of the rifle.  I usually put 100 rounds down range per visit.  Though on some occasions I go through 300 rounds switching between targets from 25-50-100 yards.  

 

I have no problem recommending a PSA rifle to anyone looking to get an AR at an affordable price point. 

I'll admit Ruger makes good products but I won't spend a dime of my money on anything with their name on it since old man Bill came out in support of the 94 ban, which helped it pass. His reason was purely economic, as he wanted to reduce competition against the mini-14 and 30. I said it in 94 and I've stuck to it since, not another dime to those that support bans.

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2 hours ago, Skillet said:

I'll admit Ruger makes good products but I won't spend a dime of my money on anything with their name on it since old man Bill came out in support of the 94 ban, which helped it pass. His reason was purely economic, as he wanted to reduce competition against the mini-14 and 30. I said it in 94 and I've stuck to it since, not another dime to those that support bans.

Bill died years ago.  The current owners/heads of Ruger have a different philosophy.  I'm not going to boycott a dead person. 

 

For those who might have qualms with Ruger... Smith and Wesson provides a budget friendly MP15 that receives good reviews.  

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On 2/22/2020 at 1:34 PM, RevRifleman said:

Bill died years ago.  The current owners/heads of Ruger have a different philosophy.  I'm not going to boycott a dead person. 

 

For those who might have qualms with Ruger... Smith and Wesson provides a budget friendly MP15 that receives good reviews.  

 

Dead or not Ruger is Ruger, and he put the Company name and resources behind the for profit over rights stance.  Sturm Ruger as a company developed the initial language for the magazine ban.  it wasn't just Bill, but he and Stave Sanetti (Sturm Ruger's company general counsel) were the "industry voices" that helped make it palatable to politicians despite guys like Knox pushing back.  Bottom line: Ruger as a company sold us out - so not another dime ever.

IMHO Smith and Wesson is a better choice. I've seen nothing but good customer support form them, and with them being spun off from their parent corp they now have the political freedom to innovate.  But PSA still wins the budget AR battle. Right now you can snag an FN Barrelled mid length upper from them for around $299. The kit version with everything but the lower is around $499. It's hard to beat those prices with that kind of barrel quality.   

Edited by Skillet

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24 minutes ago, Claw Hammer said:

One day ill try out  Daniel defense.... cant honestly see the big hype but I'll keep rocking the homebuilds.

 

DD is good stuff. I'd like to have a Barrett Rec-7 but honestly can't justify spending that kind of cash on an AR platform. A homebuild assembled by someone that actually knows what they are doing with the right tools and has researched and chosen wisely what they are putting together will perform reliably and accurately enough for what 99.99% of us need. 

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