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Are we being lured into Civil War?

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2 minutes ago, Yeshua is LORD said:

Grandpa, what did you do when our country was falling apart? .... Well, I passed that responsibility on to you. 

.... Really? 

I’ve stacked my enemies bodies like wood would you like to compare numbers?

the day that it’s that bad I’ll leave my family to do what I must and if you doubt that please test me I’m sure you’ll fail. 

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1 minute ago, JPilken said:

I’ve stacked my enemies bodies like wood would you like to compare numbers?

the day that it’s that bad I’ll leave my family to do what I must and if you doubt that please test me I’m sure you’ll fail. 

My my, touchy aren't we. 

I was simply commenting that I don't see myself leaving it to my grandchildren. 

As to the other , I'm a soldier myself bud. I don't fear you or anyone. So, going there is isn't impressing anyone but yourself. 


Joshua 24:15 "But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

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Just now, JPilken said:

I’ve stacked my enemies bodies like wood would you like to compare numbers?

the day that it’s that bad I’ll leave my family to do what I must and if you doubt that please test me I’m sure you’ll fail. 

I have 7 or 8 for sure. Possible 3 or 4 others, twas dark, didn't feel like standing around for roll call. Inadvertently helped a high level intel agency do several, until I figured out they were pawns. Then I helped the Marshals kidnap the other targets to protect them. Bastards probably still wonder where they are, lol.

     I believe you. You give advice like an uncle.

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4 minutes ago, Todd A. Slee said:

I have 7 or 8 for sure. Possible 3 or 4 others, twas dark, didn't feel like standing around for roll call. Inadvertently helped a high level intel agency do several, until I figured out they were pawns. Then I helped the Marshals kidnap the other targets to protect them. Bastards probably still wonder where they are, lol.

     I believe you. You give advice like an uncle.

I've personally killed 6 today. 

Wait... We are counting flies as enemy combatants right? 


Joshua 24:15 "But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

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9 minutes ago, Yeshua is LORD said:

My my, touchy aren't we. 

I was simply commenting that I don't see myself leaving it to my grandchildren. 

As to the other , I'm a soldier myself bud. I don't fear you or anyone. So, going there is isn't impressing anyone but yourself. 

Not touchy at all my feelers are buried so deep that you’ll need a excavator. I don’t pass the buck along and never have. But if there is a open engagement then im not starting one. As to impressing anyone never tried that maybe I’ll start one day.  

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Well, I guess if nobody thinks we should do what is Constitutional and prescribed by law (people make citizen's arrests rather frequently), I guess we could do marches and protests armed with the one thing that the Left and Libs hate more than guns: the Holy Bible.

     I heard a true account some years ago, about a cop who was telling pretty women he'd pulled over, that he'd let them off the hook in exchange for sexual favors. So happened this one woman was quite good in martial arts. She subdued him, cuffed him, threw him in the trunk of his own car, then called his superior, said where to find him. That's Constitutional and lawful. That's a true story, FBI verified it for me.

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The main problem as I see it is infiltrators.  The larger your group gets, the more attention it brings to itself the more you have to worry about "plants". Even if you have a dedicated group of Intell people "investigators" you will never know who might be passing info outside your group. That is why a lot of people are hesitant to commit to a large group. There has to be a way to verify a persons loyalty and comment to the cause. I for one do not have the answer to that question, I wish I did. Until we can verify a persons true heart and soul we will be confined to small groups.         

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15 minutes ago, subsailor said:

The main problem as I see it is infiltrators.  The larger your group gets, the more attention it brings to itself the more you have to worry about "plants". Even if you have a dedicated group of Intell people "investigators" you will never know who might be passing info outside your group. That is why a lot of people are hesitant to commit to a large group. There has to be a way to verify a persons loyalty and comment to the cause. I for one do not have the answer to that question, I wish I did. Until we can verify a persons true heart and soul we will be confined to small groups.         

 

Never seen a large group train


“If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn’t thinking.” – General George S. Patton

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On 4/26/2020 at 4:14 AM, subsailor said:

The main problem as I see it is infiltrators.  The larger your group gets, the more attention it brings to itself the more you have to worry about "plants". Even if you have a dedicated group of Intell people "investigators" you will never know who might be passing info outside your group. That is why a lot of people are hesitant to commit to a large group. There has to be a way to verify a persons loyalty and comment to the cause. I for one do not have the answer to that question, I wish I did. Until we can verify a persons true heart and soul we will be confined to small groups.         

It is not possible to do what you want, i.e. to make sure your group is free of informants.  All experience tells us that the police will always find a way to get someone into your group, or to 'turn' someone who is already there.  Background checks to weed out obvious AntiFa infiltrators, and, even more importantly, chronically violent or criminal types, are an excellent idea. They will not catch the fellow the police have cultivated and put on the payroll.

 

So what can you do?  Do what you've been doing: train, learn, expand your group: recruit new members, hold public meetings on the issues of the day, set up tables at places you're allowed to so you can have extended conversations with people.

 

At the moment, the militia movement is viewed with suspicion by the great majority of Americans (who have even heard of it), and this includes many conservatives. But this can be overcome. You've got to connect your organization with the community, by being involved in every public emergency, by engaging in things like veterans' appreciation and support,  by being seen to be one of the pillars of public order.

 

What you must NOT do is even more important: don't do 'crazy talk' that can and will be used against you in court, or in the court of public opinion. Talk of 'arresting the governor for violating the Constitution' is crazy talk.  Anyone who cannot see the difference between making a citizen's arrest of a criminal robbing a convenience store (or even shooting him), vs 'arresting' an elected official because you think he's violating the John Birch Society's idea of the Constitution, should not be allowed in adult company.

 

And: watch out for provocateurs.  FBI plants -- this is how they have operated in the Muslim community over the last 20 years -- will latch on to the hot air merchants and subtly goad them to put words into deeds ... and when they succeed in getting their victim to take some steps towards doing that  --- bingo, it's off to prison with them. It's not 'entrapment' but it comes close.

 

From the outside, Russian (and possibly now Chinese) trolls will do whatever they can to get violent confrontations between Americans. Don't pay any attention to them. In the St Petersburg troll factory, the first new English slang word they learn is 'boogaloo', because that's what they want to cause.  If they do succeed in getting some unstable militia member to do another Timothy McVeigh, they will kill the militia movement, just as he did.

 

As for the future, and any internal armed conflict, caused by the Left, not us, trying to overturn democratic government ... that remains to be seen.  If it happened tomorrow, the militia movement would have zero influence in it, because the movment is tiny.  To have even 3% of the 25 million males who voted for Trump, it would need 750 000 members.

 

So there is a target: grow by two orders of magnitude, which means taking advantage of the sort of events that change people's minds.

 

Things like this virus, which expose the desire  of the Left to control everything, and also expose the incompetence of bloated bureaucratic national government, should be seen as opportunities for us to grow.  The whole premise of the militia movement is: don't trust the authorities to keep us safe. 

 

this is an ideal opportunity to stand up and say,  Be Prepared. The militia movement is the ultimate 'prepper' organization, and right now, a lot of people who never thought about it before are taking 'prepping' seriously.

 

The people who want to destroy the militia movement may attack it on the legal front, trying to get it classified as a collection of 'private armies'. They will try to portray it as a collection of dangerous crazies, ready to go out and machine-gun elementary schools or mosques.  Don't give them any ammunition for to use against us.

 

And from the 'inside' they will try to tempt people to do stupid things: to buy illegal armaments, for example.

 

For everything, there is a season.  Now is the season for patient, steady work, keeping a cool head, not being provoked.


You can get a lot further in life with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

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On 4/25/2020 at 11:14 PM, subsailor said:

The main problem as I see it is infiltrators.  The larger your group gets, the more attention it brings to itself the more you have to worry about "plants". Even if you have a dedicated group of Intell people "investigators" you will never know who might be passing info outside your group. That is why a lot of people are hesitant to commit to a large group. There has to be a way to verify a persons loyalty and comment to the cause. I for one do not have the answer to that question, I wish I did. Until we can verify a persons true heart and soul we will be confined to small groups.         

There's many ways to determine if someone is a plant or not, other than online. Online you  can only trace them, maybe find out who they are, mostly only way, although very subtle indications surface in what they type sometimes. But if you know who they are you can determine it in a variety of ways.

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As I have told before, I walked away 20 years ago due to 5 of 21 members of our group ending up being LEO's. Things I took away from that: Make sure you can subtly verify their place of employment and drop in one day to see if they are there. Never engage in discussions of illegal activities or weapons, and never ever put your prints on any illegal device someone "shows up" with. Any brother willing to fight alongside you should have no problem with you knowing where they live.

 

As for being lured into civil war, I think the initial groundwork was to be laid with the election of Hillary. I also think it isn't likely this soon. I'm 55 and I think my generation is about the last stumbling block left, and I believe it's a waiting game, waiting on those of us born in the '60's to age away. Oh, there are a few younger folks out there who will stand up against the machine but the resolve to do so is getting less and less with each generation.

 

The fight? I've known for years that our initial battle will be against the police. It won't be Chinese paratroopers or nuclear warheads but rather starvation, loss of rights and battles in the streets that will start the downfall of this country.  If it were a foreign force or natural disaster, we would all pull together against that common enemy, and those that seek the ruination of our way of life know that. No, it'll start with the police, the Type A assholes they insist on hiring now at every department in the country, the ones who blindly follow orders and have no respect for anyone who is not them.

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1 hour ago, Tempstar said:

As I have told before, I walked away 20 years ago due to 5 of 21 members of our group ending up being LEO's. Things I took away from that: Make sure you can subtly verify their place of employment and drop in one day to see if they are there. Never engage in discussions of illegal activities or weapons, and never ever put your prints on any illegal device someone "shows up" with. Any brother willing to fight alongside you should have no problem with you knowing where they live.

 

As for being lured into civil war, I think the initial groundwork was to be laid with the election of Hillary. I also think it isn't likely this soon. I'm 55 and I think my generation is about the last stumbling block left, and I believe it's a waiting game, waiting on those of us born in the '60's to age away. Oh, there are a few younger folks out there who will stand up against the machine but the resolve to do so is getting less and less with each generation.

 

The fight? I've known for years that our initial battle will be against the police. It won't be Chinese paratroopers or nuclear warheads but rather starvation, loss of rights and battles in the streets that will start the downfall of this country.  If it were a foreign force or natural disaster, we would all pull together against that common enemy, and those that seek the ruination of our way of life know that. No, it'll start with the police, the Type A assholes they insist on hiring now at every department in the country, the ones who blindly follow orders and have no respect for anyone who is not them.

     I have to agree. 'Course, I think it depends upon locale as to what percentage of police are willing to be unconstitutional. 75% of this country has turned into sheeple, or some high percentage. Maybe we can stave it off until we're 90, then if the younger generations want to live in a totalitarian, nanny state, then so long to 'em.

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I know a Few Cops. Country Boy types, I'd trust. I've came across a few not so good. One was mad I was a Veteran, said some things, gave me a Ticket for 7 over. 

 If you are in a Group just see what works, how people fit. If there not right for the band let em go. Cop, a Rabi, a military veteran,  Construction worker, contractor can all work together and perform well, just like a Band. Know your lead singer, your guitarist, Drummer, bass, maybe keyboard, Harmonica. Someone comes along and dont fit, they dont fit. Vote not to accept them in see what others think too.

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On 4/27/2020 at 2:45 AM, Doug1943 said:

It is not possible to do what you want, i.e. to make sure your group is free of informants.  All experience tells us that the police will always find a way to get someone into your group, or to 'turn' someone who is already there.  Background checks to weed out obvious AntiFa infiltrators, and, even more importantly, chronically violent or criminal types, are an excellent idea. They will not catch the fellow the police have cultivated and put on the payroll.

 

So what can you do?  Do what you've been doing: train, learn, expand your group: recruit new members, hold public meetings on the issues of the day, set up tables at places you're allowed to so you can have extended conversations with people.

 

At the moment, the militia movement is viewed with suspicion by the great majority of Americans (who have even heard of it), and this includes many conservatives. But this can be overcome. You've got to connect your organization with the community, by being involved in every public emergency, by engaging in things like veterans' appreciation and support,  by being seen to be one of the pillars of public order.

 

What you must NOT do is even more important: don't do 'crazy talk' that can and will be used against you in court, or in the court of public opinion. Talk of 'arresting the governor for violating the Constitution' is crazy talk.  Anyone who cannot see the difference between making a citizen's arrest of a criminal robbing a convenience store (or even shooting him), vs 'arresting' an elected official because you think he's violating the John Birch Society's idea of the Constitution, should not be allowed in adult company.

 

And: watch out for provocateurs.  FBI plants -- this is how they have operated in the Muslim community over the last 20 years -- will latch on to the hot air merchants and subtly goad them to put words into deeds ... and when they succeed in getting their victim to take some steps towards doing that  --- bingo, it's off to prison with them. It's not 'entrapment' but it comes close.

 

From the outside, Russian (and possibly now Chinese) trolls will do whatever they can to get violent confrontations between Americans. Don't pay any attention to them. In the St Petersburg troll factory, the first new English slang word they learn is 'boogaloo', because that's what they want to cause.  If they do succeed in getting some unstable militia member to do another Timothy McVeigh, they will kill the militia movement, just as he did.

 

As for the future, and any internal armed conflict, caused by the Left, not us, trying to overturn democratic government ... that remains to be seen.  If it happened tomorrow, the militia movement would have zero influence in it, because the movment is tiny.  To have even 3% of the 25 million males who voted for Trump, it would need 750 000 members.

 

So there is a target: grow by two orders of magnitude, which means taking advantage of the sort of events that change people's minds.

 

Things like this virus, which expose the desire  of the Left to control everything, and also expose the incompetence of bloated bureaucratic national government, should be seen as opportunities for us to grow.  The whole premise of the militia movement is: don't trust the authorities to keep us safe. 

 

this is an ideal opportunity to stand up and say,  Be Prepared. The militia movement is the ultimate 'prepper' organization, and right now, a lot of people who never thought about it before are taking 'prepping' seriously.

 

The people who want to destroy the militia movement may attack it on the legal front, trying to get it classified as a collection of 'private armies'. They will try to portray it as a collection of dangerous crazies, ready to go out and machine-gun elementary schools or mosques.  Don't give them any ammunition for to use against us.

 

And from the 'inside' they will try to tempt people to do stupid things: to buy illegal armaments, for example.

 

For everything, there is a season.  Now is the season for patient, steady work, keeping a cool head, not being provoked.

     Well, I'm going to make one last comment here, then let it go on. 

     I'm not a provocateur, nor are my suggestions childish or outlandish, and indeed have always been a part of the democratic process, which you can research and see.

     Now firstly, if they start confiscating guns, do you really believe that we'd even still have a democratic process? You, I'm sure, know full well that history of ALL nations who have done as such will answer no, there won't be.

     And a government which would confiscate guns on a large scale has already ditched the democratic process; it would be an act of war against the people, against the nation, against rightful government. A last ditch effort by us, yes, but necessary in that circumstance, unless the military intervened first, against the tyrannists.

     To be sure, any citizen's arrest has to be done cautiously, as the LAW, not a person, outlays, in order to escape liability, but it is included in the democratic process.

     In such an event, law enforcement authority is essentially transferred to a civilian in that circumstance, a step down from a law enforcement officer deputizing someone, in essence.

     I believe that one main reason that cops don't deputize people even when they could use the help is due to insurance requirements, insurance companies controlling much activity in America.

     From what I've read, up until 2012, 14 states granted citizens authority or right to resist unlawful arrest. Again, if they confiscate guns unjustly, meaning without cause regardless of what bogus laws they make, it is an act of war and deprivation of a means to defend against criminals and tyrannists.

     In that event, a Constitutional cop or agent could be in charge and authorize a group to assist In preventing unjust confiscation of guns.

     The few links I provide here bear double checking, but what I suggest is a part of the democratic process for our Constitutional Republic.

     I've been on the street, and I've seen some of the worst deviousness by cops, operatives, informants and criminals. If guns are gone from the hands of law abiding citizens, there will be no democratic process, and the criminals will murder all the good cops.

     If civilian Patriots have no business stopping unjust confiscation of guns, then what business do we have assisting In catastrophes such as hurricanes? Militias are not government authorized disaster relief organizations.

     Again, I'm talking about extreme situations, when the government is unlawful, when it truly is a matter of our survival. I've been tested, tried and proven to have proper restraint and a sound mind by the feds, as all their street people are, more times than most people have had diarrhea. 

     So you might want to do a little research on the subject of citizen's arrests and even arresting a cop or federal officer before making anyone out to be a lunatic.

     Would it be precarious? Yes. Dangerous? Yes. Outside of the norm? Of course. But would it be better than resigning ourselves to having zero rights? Hell yes.

     And again, my suggestion is for extreme situations. But if you'd survived some of the events that I, and others, have, and seen the worst side of people, you'd think a little differently on the issue. The same thing that made Cain murder his brother Abel with a rock or stick, is still in people today:

https://www.google.com/search?q=have civilians ever performed citizens arrests on cops%3F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m#ip=1.

     Example, you ever wake up in the middle of the night to see several armed men standing there, because you had a "friend" who got into illegal drug transport (that one I could do nothing but talk and wait, convincing them I'd told no one about their illegal drug running, but I had, several years earlier, lol. They finally left. They'd gotten a key from my buddy, who'd stayed there for awhile, then moved out due to thinking he was being watched, which he was. What are friends for? Lol.)? You ever been undercover in places where they'd kill a fed and drag him out? You ever get a captured fed away from four armed executioners, armed only with a knife (was my choice). You ever been shot at by crooked feds, for tackling government corruption? You ever get ambushed in the middle of the night by snipers? You ever go up against murderous "U2's"? I have, and usually had a gun. I somehow survived, not being highly trained at all, and had to think fast, but a gun was often the deciding factor.

     We let 'em take guns, and that stuff will be common occurrences all over the place. Think about that:

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/wyntk.html

     But yeah, you are right, Doug, we do need to maintain democratic process long as it lasts, when possible. I do value your input.

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Maybe, but all diplomatic avenues should be explored before pursing violence. The Founding Fathers, have done the same and penned their frustrations with the crown. However, many more Americans are experiencing the vast inadequacies and inefficiencies of the federal government, it is possible in our lifetime, we may see a large social upheaval of sorts. If, and only if, the people have been given enough frustrations to act upon, these frustrations may be lack of food, where in several parts of the world, that has taken place already and riots have erupted and looting has proceeded them. Now is the time more than ever to organize and train diligently like an established military, and like a guerilla force. I say guerilla, because that would be the most effective means of combating an established enemy, may it be UN blue helmets coming to forcefully strip you of your tools of liberty or a standing federal army enforcing a socialist or otherwise tyrannical regime. Get organized, get trained, get ready. 

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6 hours ago, Schnikes said:

Maybe, but all diplomatic avenues should be explored before pursing violence. The Founding Fathers, have done the same and penned their frustrations with the crown. However, many more Americans are experiencing the vast inadequacies and inefficiencies of the federal government, it is possible in our lifetime, we may see a large social upheaval of sorts. If, and only if, the people have been given enough frustrations to act upon, these frustrations may be lack of food, where in several parts of the world, that has taken place already and riots have erupted and looting has proceeded them. Now is the time more than ever to organize and train diligently like an established military, and like a guerilla force. I say guerilla, because that would be the most effective means of combating an established enemy, may it be UN blue helmets coming to forcefully strip you of your tools of liberty or a standing federal army enforcing a socialist or otherwise tyrannical regime. Get organized, get trained, get ready. 

The phrase 'guerilla war' is one that many people use when thinkng about a future situation in which American democracy has been destroyed by the Left, and an armed conflict ensues between the defenders of liberty and the Constitution, on the one hand, and its enemies, on the other. 

 

However, we ought to be precise in our terminology -- careless use  of words can have very bad results. (On the radio, in combat, why does the FO say, "I say again", instead of "repeat" -- unless he's talking to an artillery battery?)

 

We can characterize armed combat along a spectrum, using the phrases 'terrorism', 'guerilla war', and 'conventional war' to label each end and the middle of that spectrum.  It's a 'spectrum' because these actions overlap with each other. 

 

Terrorism: At one end we have a situation in which small groups of individuals do things like setting off bombs or trying to kill a large number of people at a public gathering, or carrying out assassinations or kidnappings.  In America, the Weathermen engaged in this, and also the Ku Klux Klan and certain neoNazi groups, like the 'Silent Brotherhood' (more popularly known as 'The Order'.)  Timothy McVeigh did this  (and destroyed the militia movement, along with 168 innocent people including 19 children). 

 

There have been other, less systematic, acts of murder carried out by individuals which the press is all too happy to tie to the militia movement, such as the murders carried out by Jerad and Amanda Miller  although in fact no militia movement member has ever committed an act of terrorism. (The majority of terrorist acts in the US are carried out by white supremacists and anti-abortion extremists.  It's an eye-opener to read how common terrorism is in the US. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States

 

Naturally, the mainstream media play up 'right-wing' terrorism, and bury left-wing terrorism. They also celebrate the left-wing terrorists of the past, as Time magazine did with the Weathermen. [ https://time.com/4549409/the-weather-underground-bad-moon-rising/]

 

Terrorists aren't directly trying to seize state power, to defeat the armed forces of the state in a pitched battle, although they may see their acts as helping other who are, or may have a plan for action in the distant future that will involve taking power after a more conventional war. 

 

Guerilla war: In the middle of the spectrum is 'guerilla warfare': the guerillas are armed, they directly confront and engage in combat with the forces of the state, but they do not, typically, make up the ruling powers in a geographic area. They may 'rule by  night' or otherwise have de facto authority in remote rural areas, but they are not (yet) an alternative government.  Their mode of warfare is typically 'hit and run'. They do not, typically, attempt to openly seize and hold territory, because the conventional forces which they are fighting can mobilize superior force, if given enough time, and crush the guerillas. So the typical guerilla maneuver is to quickly bring togeher previously-dispersed small groups, achieving a temporary local superiority of force, strike at the enemy, and then quickly disperse again.

 

But ... this is just 'typical'. We can move along the spectrum towards the other end, conventional war, through intermediate phases: where the guerillas seize and hold some territory.  This can occur where the country they're operating in is large, and the transportation is primitive, making it hard for the official government forces to pursue the guerillas: Mao's 'base areas' in the 1930s and 1940s  are an example.  And there are hybrid situations: where the guerillas have a 'safe haven' across an international border, and can take refuge with a friendly state, or with one that is too weak to resist their presence.

 

Guerillas find that the most congenial terrain is that which makes operating difficult for conventional forces: large expanses of jungle, and/or very mountainous terrain with few roads. 

 

Modern technology, with satellites, and manned and unmanned aerial observation, not to mention passive listening and viewing devices which can be left hidden along trails, works against guerillas.  On the other hand, intelligent guerillas will take advantage of the commuications and propaganda possibilities offered to them by this technology.

 

Conventional War:  this is what most people think of when the word 'war' is used: armies which are extensions of states. States have the power to compel: they can collect taxes, direct their populations to behavei in certain ways, including requiring military service.  But even conventional wars between armies, each trying to hold territory, will involve 'behind the lines' actions, action by 'resistance groups', and even terrorism.

 

 

At this point, we ought to ask ourselves: when do guerillas defeat a conventional army?  After all, it ought to be no contest. The conventional army has all the resources of a state behind it ... the guerillas have to rely on irregular sources of supply. But sometimes they win: Fidel's rebels beat Batista, Mao defeated Chiang.  (Vietnam was a combined guerilla war and conventional one, going over from the first to the second as time went on: the 'Viet Cong', the actual ones, were nowhere near the threat that NVA regiments were.) 

 

When do guerillas win? Keep in mind that most guerilla movements have  been defeated. In the 1960s and70s, there were quite a few guerilla movements in Latin America, trying to imitate the success of the Cubans. All but Nicaragua were defeated.  (In Columbia, they have been held in check, and have evolved into narco-terrorists.)   Why?

 

Because, in the post-Cuban cases, they were NOT taking on widely-hated, degenerate governments, despised by the poor and the middle class alike.  The typical guerilla movement [ which often didn't get beyond the stage of terrorism] was made up of middle class young radicals, with no organic connections to the workers or peasants, who hoped that their actions would spark mass support by example alone. They were  wrong. The broad masses of the Latin American countries may have had grievances against their governments, but they didn't want to replace those governments with a Communist dictatorship, which was the open goal of these guerillas.

 

And there is a general rule: when the guerillas have mass support -- when their goals seem to be democracy and national liberation from foreign rule, then they have a chance. If not, not.  Notice that Mao, Ho, and Fidel did NOT openly fight for Communism. The built 'broad' movements which -- although they remained in control -- tried to bring in democrats, nationalists, religious groups. They understood the importance of building a broad base, and of NOT appearing to be 'extremists'.

 

Anyone who is really interested in this subject shoudl read Max Boot's book on guerilla warfare, Invisible Armies.

 

If there is a breakdown of the legal democratic order in the United States, and armed conflict follows, which of the above models is it likely to follow? Where on the spectrum will it be?

 

In my opinion: none of the above.   For a clue to our possible future, we have to look elsewhere.

 

 

 


You can get a lot further in life with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

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18 hours ago, Todd A. Slee said:

There's many ways to determine if someone is a plant or not, other than online. Online you  can only trace them, maybe find out who they are, mostly only way, although very subtle indications surface in what they type sometimes. But if you know who they are you can determine it in a variety of ways.

Could you elaborate on this?

 

Suppose someone applies to join your militia. They pass your background checks: they're not criminals, they have lived where they say they have lived for several years, they seem reasonably familiar with the political outlook of patriots. 

 

What can we do to investigate further? 


You can get a lot further in life with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

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8 hours ago, Todd A. Slee said:

     Well, I'm going to make one last comment here, then let it go on. 

     I'm not a provocateur, nor are my suggestions childish or outlandish, and indeed have always been a part of the democratic process, which you can research and see.

     Now firstly, if they start confiscating guns, do you really believe that we'd even still have a democratic process? You, I'm sure, know full well that history of ALL nations who have done as such will answer no, there won't be.

     And a government which would confiscate guns on a large scale has already ditched the democratic process; it would be an act of war against the people, against the nation, against rightful government. A last ditch effort by us, yes, but necessary in that circumstance, unless the military intervened first, against the tyrannists.

     To be sure, any citizen's arrest has to be done cautiously, as the LAW, not a person, outlays, in order to escape liability, but it is included in the democratic process.

     In such an event, law enforcement authority is essentially transferred to a civilian in that circumstance, a step down from a law enforcement officer deputizing someone, in essence.

     I believe that one main reason that cops don't deputize people even when they could use the help is due to insurance requirements, insurance companies controlling much activity in America.

     From what I've read, up until 2012, 14 states granted citizens authority or right to resist unlawful arrest. Again, if they confiscate guns unjustly, meaning without cause regardless of what bogus laws they make, it is an act of war and deprivation of a means to defend against criminals and tyrannists.

     In that event, a Constitutional cop or agent could be in charge and authorize a group to assist In preventing unjust confiscation of guns.

     The few links I provide here bear double checking, but what I suggest is a part of the democratic process for our Constitutional Republic.

     I've been on the street, and I've seen some of the worst deviousness by cops, operatives, informants and criminals. If guns are gone from the hands of law abiding citizens, there will be no democratic process, and the criminals will murder all the good cops.

     If civilian Patriots have no business stopping unjust confiscation of guns, then what business do we have assisting In catastrophes such as hurricanes? Militias are not government authorized disaster relief organizations.

     Again, I'm talking about extreme situations, when the government is unlawful, when it truly is a matter of our survival. I've been tested, tried and proven to have proper restraint and a sound mind by the feds, as all their street people are, more times than most people have had diarrhea. 

     So you might want to do a little research on the subject of citizen's arrests and even arresting a cop or federal officer before making anyone out to be a lunatic.

     Would it be precarious? Yes. Dangerous? Yes. Outside of the norm? Of course. But would it be better than resigning ourselves to having zero rights? Hell yes.

     And again, my suggestion is for extreme situations. But if you'd survived some of the events that I, and others, have, and seen the worst side of people, you'd think a little differently on the issue. The same thing that made Cain murder his brother Abel with a rock or stick, is still in people today:

https://www.google.com/search?q=have civilians ever performed citizens arrests on cops%3F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m#ip=1.

     Example, you ever wake up in the middle of the night to see several armed men standing there, because you had a "friend" who got into illegal drug transport? You ever been undercover in places where they'd kill a fed and drag him out? You ever get a captured fed away from four armed executioners, armed only with a knife (was my choice). You ever been shot at by crooked feds, for tackling government corruption? You ever get ambushed in the middle of the night by snipers? You ever go up against murderous "U2's"? I have, and usually had a gun. I somehow survived, not being highly trained at all, and had to think fast, but a gun was often the deciding factor.

     We let 'em take guns, and that stuff will be common occurrences all over the place. Think about that:

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/wyntk.html

Okay, let's get concrete.

 

If I see someone robbing a convenience store and overpower them and hold them down and make a "citizen's arrest" ... what happens next? Well, someone calls the police, who come along, and make a real arrest.

 

But, what if the people I am "arresting" are the police?  Not a single rogue cop trying to get a bribe or sexual favors, but the offficial police, with a warrant, executing the law that was recently passed by the Democratic-controlled legislature.

 

Say that Duncan Lemp had had a lot of friends in his neighborhood, who happened to be partying and awake, when they heard the raid on his house at 4.30 am. Suppose they had successfully "arrested" the raiding party.  So now they've got  a half-dozen policemen tied up ... "under arrest" -- a "citizen's arrest" -- now what do they do?

 

 


You can get a lot further in life with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

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Mr. Doug and Todd you both have been very enlightening to follow, I would like to say thank you both for having well thought out conversations and handling it respectfully. This is the healthy debate that I have spoke of, two like minded people that still have some differences can still find something to debate. NOT ARGUE but debate, yes at times the replies are lengthy and require investigation to fact check. It is incredibly difficult to hear of the murder of Mr. Lemp and just sit around and await what could be a one sided report. I have already leaned towards the opinion of WTF does it take to get a "no knock warrant" for a minor offense that is carried out at 0400? in other words the whole things stinks like shit, "IF" the agencies involved are found at fault as they should be throw the book at them and set a example. THIS DOES NOT MEAN SHIT ON THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AND PLUNGE INNOCENTS INTO A WAR for the actions of a few bad apples. As to a citizens arrest of police that is a very specific example that I am sure you are aware that is not an easy topic to unravel. 

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1 hour ago, Doug1943 said:

Could you elaborate on this?

 

Suppose someone applies to join your militia. They pass your background checks: they're not criminals, they have lived where they say they have lived for several years, they seem reasonably familiar with the political outlook of patriots. 

 

What can we do to investigate further? 

I will this evening, at work right now.

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2 hours ago, JPilken said:

Mr. Doug and Todd you both have been very enlightening to follow, I would like to say thank you both for having well thought out conversations and handling it respectfully. This is the healthy debate that I have spoke of, two like minded people that still have some differences can still find something to debate. NOT ARGUE but debate, yes at times the replies are lengthy and require investigation to fact check. It is incredibly difficult to hear of the murder of Mr. Lemp and just sit around and await what could be a one sided report. I have already leaned towards the opinion of WTF does it take to get a "no knock warrant" for a minor offense that is carried out at 0400? in other words the whole things stinks like shit, "IF" the agencies involved are found at fault as they should be throw the book at them and set a example. THIS DOES NOT MEAN SHIT ON THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AND PLUNGE INNOCENTS INTO A WAR for the actions of a few bad apples. As to a citizens arrest of police that is a very specific example that I am sure you are aware that is not an easy topic to unravel. 

Thank you for the kind compliment and I am sure Todd would join me in that.

 

Here's the problem: sometimes, in war, you have to retreat.  (And always in war you have to have plans made for every contingency that you can think of ... worked out in advance ... what should we do if this happens, what should we do if that happens, etc. Trying to work out the best response when you're already under attack is the last situation you want to be in.)  So you have to work out plans for what you will do when you are faced with overwhelming force, and cannot hold your position.

 

Every serious military commander knows that this is the case.  The British could have turned and fought at Dunkirk. It would have been heroic ... and they would have lost their army.  Instead, they wisely retreated, and lived to fight another day. Anyone who does not realize this, who has not absorbed this idea into their bones, is a fool.  War is not  child's contest of who can be the most macho.  You fight to win. Which means you have to be cold-blooded, calculating, trying to attack when you have overwhelming force.

 

Hollywood has corrupted us. It makes war, and the 'peaceful war' of daily political life, appear like a series of daring, brilliant moves by a fearless Rambo type. But real life struggle is more like chess ... move and counter-move, only occasionally involving violence. But you can't make box-office success movies for teen-agers, and teen-age mentalities, about chess.

 

What should Duncan Lemp have done, if  -- I say "if" because I have no idea what was in his mind, awakened from what was probably a deep sleep at 4am, nor do I know what other credible threats against him there might have been -- but IF he realized that the police were outside his house, demanding to come in and seize his weapons?

 

There is only one sane answer: NOT to pick up a weapon.  And then to negotiate a peaceful surrender, if he could.  And then to fight them in the courts, if he had a case.  (If he did NOT have a case ... of the dead we must speak only good, but, if he was really prohibited by court order from owning weapons, and then went out and acquired three assault rifles and boasted about them ......)

 

In fact, I would make it a condition for membership in a militia group, to give the sane answer to that question: What should Duncan Lemp have done, if he realized that his house was under seige by a SWAT team? 

 

Any prospective member who answers "He should have started shooting," or any answer equivalent to that, is a danger to the movement and should be politely shown the door. (Of course, 99.99% of the people who would have urged Lemp to commit suicide are just hot-air merchants, without the slightest intention of doing anything similar. But it's their potential effect on unstable personalities that is dangerous, plus the fact that they will be the people the vultures of the Mainstream Media seek out to represent the movement.)

 

We can't evade this, or get around it with vague statements,  or dodge it in any other way by saying "What if the Founding Fathers ..." etc. Those are false analogies: the Founders did NOT launch an uprising when the Boston Massacre took place.

 

They did not launch a shooting response when the Stamp Act was passed.  (The Revolution was still ten years away.)

 

They would not have been supported by the majority of the population then. But they no doubt recognized the effect each would have on Americans, and went from there, getting more and more support, year after year, until the British made a stupid move that brought out the now-prepared population.  But they didn't start that way.

 

Most people are not keen to get into a shooting war with their government! It takes events, interpreted by patriots through writing and speaking, to change peoples' minds.  (Even then, it's arguable how much support they had ... it used to be estimated at 1/3 for independence, 1/3 against, and 1/3 neutral.  But those are just guesses.)  

 

That's what we have to do. Interpret events for people, through meetings, personal conversations, posting on the web, letters to the editor, leaflets.  And since we face a Left which is growing in strength within the Democratic Party -- which has already made some of the top Democrats call police self-defense "murder" -- we have to be prepared for a more direct assault on democracy: thus the militia, which must train and prepare but above all must GROW IN SIZE.


 

 

 


You can get a lot further in life with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

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8 hours ago, Doug1943 said:

Okay, let's get concrete.

 

If I see someone robbing a convenience store and overpower them and hold them down and make a "citizen's arrest" ... what happens next? Well, someone calls the police, who come along, and make a real arrest.

 

But, what if the people I am "arresting" are the police?  Not a single rogue cop trying to get a bribe or sexual favors, but the offficial police, with a warrant, executing the law that was recently passed by the Democratic-controlled legislature.

 

Say that Duncan Lemp had had a lot of friends in his neighborhood, who happened to be partying and awake, when they heard the raid on his house at 4.30 am. Suppose they had successfully "arrested" the raiding party.  So now they've got  a half-dozen policemen tied up ... "under arrest" -- a "citizen's arrest" -- now what do they do?

 

 

Lol. We'd have to be sure. Studying on any citizen's arrest reveals that unless it's quite cut and dried, legal problems could ensue. More so on a cop. I'm talking as a last ditch measure. I do think that in those cases, gun confiscation, a few Constitutional cops, feds, ops, even a mayor or something, could be found to oversee and lead. Again, I'm going on the thesis that gun confiscation is the same as an invading army or hoarders of criminals. But yes, we need to play democratic process out as much as we can.

     Part of my thinking is due to old school ways. Been in the work force since age 12, was raised conservative Christian, but not babies nor mistreated, graduated mid term from high school, grad basic training one week after commencement, had old school sergeants, done unofficial duty with FBI and CIA, stuff most won't do, cut firewood for a living for 15 years, survived a few combat type events ,(my hat's off to combat war veterans, though, who have had it rough), and really just don't like to be told what to do with my life, and don't intend to rely upon the government for protection for the most part. They're not my nanny. Besides, looks like most home robberies last a few minutes, done and over before the cops could arrive. I don't intend to be a corpse before my time, and I don't believe in being cooperative with thieves; only one alternative left there.

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3 hours ago, Todd A. Slee said:

Lol. We'd have to be sure. Studying on any citizen's arrest reveals that unless it's quite cut and dried, legal problems could ensue. More so on a cop. I'm talking as a last ditch measure. I do think that in those cases, gun confiscation, a few Constitutional cops, feds, ops, even a mayor or something, could be found to oversee and lead. Again, I'm going on the thesis that gun confiscation is the same as an invading army or hoarders of criminals. But yes, we need to play democratic process out as much as we can.

     Part of my thinking is due to old school ways. Been in the work force since age 12, was raised conservative Christian, but not babies nor mistreated, graduated mid term from high school, grad basic training one week after commencement, had old school sergeants, done unofficial duty with FBI and CIA, stuff most won't do, cut firewood for a living for 15 years, survived a few combat type events ,(my hat's off to combat war veterans, though, who have had it rough), and really just don't like to be told what to do with my life, and don't intend to rely upon the government for protection for the most part. They're not my nanny. Besides, looks like most home robberies last a few minutes, done and over before the cops could arrive. I don't intend to be a corpse before my time, and I don't believe in being cooperative with thieves; only one alternative left there.

Okay, it sounds like you have enough experience to make a sound judgement.

But we have to remember that there are -- we hope!!!! -- lots of people reading these posts, or who will perhaps read them in the the future, including 18 year old kids whose main experience of life has been movies and television, where everything always ends well for the hero.

 

I still brood about Duncan Lemp, who sounded like a very decent young man. (I think he was 23.)  As you know, he had just signed up on this web site, before he was killed.  It would have been terrible if anything he read here would have encouraged him to do something foolish.

 

Like you, I have some experience of life, just because I'm old. One of my acquaintances, George Vizard, a wonderful guy, was murdered in Austin in 1967, almost certainly because of his political prominence at the time. We all thought that someone working for the police had done it, but it later turned out to be the work of an insane serial killer.  (The whole story is found in a book called The Zani Murders.)  Another friend of mine, Ron Burkholder, was killed by the LAPD about ten years later -- he ran out on the street naked, high on PHP I think (he was a biochemist), and tried to take away a policeman's nightstick. Killing him was unnecessary, but this is America, not a peaceful country.  And of course we all know about Ruby RIdge and Waco, where the innocent victims weren't doing anything to justify what happened to them.  I also think about Lavoy Finicum, who would be alive today if he had been more cold-blooded and calm when his car was stopped.

 

So I believe we have to be very aware of what we say ... not only so that we don't encourage people to do foolish things, but also so that we don't provide quotable material for the prosecuting attorney in some future case, if they decide to go after the militia movement to crush it in the egg.

 

 


You can get a lot further in life with a kind word and a gun, than with a kind word alone.

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On 4/28/2020 at 8:00 AM, Doug1943 said:

Could you elaborate on this?

 

Suppose someone applies to join your militia. They pass your background checks: they're not criminals, they have lived where they say they have lived for several years, they seem reasonably familiar with the political outlook of patriots. 

 

What can we do to investigate further? 

     ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS WITH INFORMANTS, FOR SOME THINGS, IS "GET IN, AND GET OUT". IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ARE TO GET WITH THE SUDPECT, DO WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO, AND GET OUTTA THERE. 

     Though that is big on drug buys, it goes for other things as well, because time is of the essence for them. They don't want to spend a lot of time in one place, on one person. But the protocol applies in other ways as well.

     Informants don't want to befriend suspects, or in many cases, victims, of a con job. They're usually cordial but not unnecessarily warm, unless it's a long term investigation on someone or, in many cases, a cultivation and maintenance of someone for a source of info. But they seldom actually befriend a target. They are usually socially aloof and bounce around on "social calls" a lot.

     The most key information about someone, for obtaining info for building a case, or for undermining someone's life, their activities, is day to day activities; where do they work, live, go for fun, business, who do they associate with.

     Informants/undercovers at your place of work often play the good guy-bad guy routine, cause dissension between the target and others, create circumstances which can make it appear that you're harassing or intimidating them, pull sleights of hand to make you look inefficient at your job, perform mind games then if called on it, brush it off as having a bad day or something. 

     Informants seem to avoid in-depth discussions about politics, religion, philosophies; they don't want much known about them. Most, if on friendly terms with you at work or at meetings, only fraternize at certain times, and when not assigned to be working you, generally ignore you at other times. Just many pecularities.

     Conversations seem rather forced, put on. They'll try to divert your focus when talking with you. They'll avoid certain direct questions which tend to reveal their true interests, values, beliefs. Basically a superficial, shallow veneer, often upright, anxious.

     One big giveaway is, which usually happens, is that all of a sudden, you'll be treated/viewed differently by acquaintences, peers, fellow workers, maybe family, because they or handler tell a lie or false presumption about you.

      Informants are usually people who don't know you well; easier for the cops to fabricate reasons to further investigate you, as strangers can mistake human idiosyncrasies as indications of possible criminal behavior, either because they lack critical thinking skills and/or discernment, or intentionally. 

     Informants usually pop up out of nowhere, approaching you for no apparent reason. If it seems l I'll like a bonafide reason, something will end up being disproportionate to why they sought you out to begin with. 

     It's becoming more and more common for informants to engage what is the same as crisis acting. That actually goes back to Biblical times, when professional mourners were hired for funerals.

     Sometimes informants will share many or most of the same values as their target, and will trump something up in order to ban to their tally. They're often stood on by a crooked handler to do so.

     Once in awhile, probably or maybe more frequently than I was ever aware of, an informant or two who are trustworthy, don't lie, will be sent out to check out possible corrupt informants or some legitimate problem before the cop investigates it himself.

     Higher level informants, federal and international, are harder to detect, but there's almost always something which seems out of place.

     I was told that there's a list of informants in Wabash County on the County/City gov site. Don't know where at, but since they pay informants, I assume it's a stipulation of law, so probably every counth has them listed. Note-when I started investigating, I got with then Wab. City Detective Jeff Whitmer, to get hours towards a p.i. license. He was going to list me as an informant, probably so I'd blend in, but a week into it he was told he couldn't list me that way, because c.i.'s are people caught in crime and given the chance to aid authorities. At the time it didn't matter to me, though, to be listed as such, and my number was to be 120. I don't know if I'm listed as anything there. Ironically, I went to then Sheriff Tim Roberts and sleuthed for him for a while in '93-94, investigating informant corruption. Worked a little with a couple informants, a state cop, a spook, uncovered corruption by c.i.'s, cops, CIA, U.S. Marshals, buttload of it. Turned into a 20 year nightmare. Mostly dealt with now, thanks to the CIA and likely some FBI, probably U.S. Dept. of State. (Note: in spite of any good that the CIA or FBI, and many cops, do, they are largely presumptuous and inundated with ulterior motive; they think we owe them allegiance, and are at their back and call, rather than simply doing their duty for the sake of upholding Constitutional values.  The CIA especially, I believe, is still pulling a bait and switch, whereby one faction of them makes out like marauders, creating situations which tend to generate reports by civilians, then another faction "takes care of the problem", then yet another faction attempts to recruit and/or coerce people into joining them, thereby giving up their freedoms and liberties, for "service to America", a variant of an old Mafia stunt. I no longer trust any of them). The CIA is likely still, and probably the FBI, in charge of a far left-far right "constitution" group which is phony as a three dollar bill, using coercive tactics and not truly adhering to Constitutional values, Wabash County being inundated with them. Wabash County is by far the worst, being a core of sick, domineering, politico-religio abjects, which I've investigated off and on for over 20 years, actually, a little under, until 2014, only once after, reporting them to the FBI during that time,  all to no avail

     Some cops/feds try to make exposing informants chargeable, no matter what they do, but all you have to do is list 'em as appearing shady, in one way or another. Can call 'em bogies if you want.

     Ones I list have a few things they could be charged with, instead being rolled. I don't worry about ones doing what they're supposed to do, because those don't go against Patriots and/or the Constitution.

     Far as people in a militia or on here or another site who are/might be informants, I'd determine who they link to, message with, fraternize with, keep an eye on them, see what they do, where they go; you can uncover an array of informants, criminals, undercovers, and they're tactics. Ones doing Constitutionally I never bothered, but it pays, and will pay, to know who the unconstitutional ones are. Even churches keep tabs on and test some of their parishioners, particularly ones preparing for the ministry. Nothing wrong, or illegal or otherwise wrong about, any group having their own detailed intel networks. The Mafia probably knows about every informant and undercover there is.

     So long as any legitimate L.E. or DOJ operations, things which should be done, are left undisturbed, they shouldn't care if they do know, and in that situation, they can't do anything about it. Most of us want society to be crime free, but we also need to be able to repel anti-Patriots. You have a notebook, or a digital device? You can write whatever you want, communicate with whoever you want. 

     Speaking of laws, every group needs someone appointed to know what all pertinent laws are, how they're interpreted, how they apply. We need to focus on, among other things, petitioning the gov to dispense of the unconstitutional laws, otherwise in twenty years we're going to really be shafted, once the ones in office who ignore the unconstitutional ones are retired.

 

     These are a few things, I'll elaborate more later, as I'm getting drowsy, been on the go all day. I'm having to think, because I've been away from that spectrum for a good while. Time for a nap.

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