Communication (HAM)

[MBR 224]

4 minutes ago, Dugindog said:

Ham is essential, in long run as an option should cellular network go down or in areas where cellular is not functional.  But ham is needed to be by design built into a plan.

Why, excepting HF both VHF and UHF are available outside of the Ham bands and HF is much more complex to deploy. 

 

4 minutes ago, Dugindog said:

 

Plan for all, use what works.

 

5 minutes ago, Dugindog said:

Ham is essential, in long run as an option should cellular network go down or in areas where cellular is not functional.  But ham is needed to be by design built into a plan. 

It doesn't work that way, either everyone that needs comms shall be a Ham or they cannot utilize Ham frequencies.

5 minutes ago, Dugindog said:

 

 

[Dugindog 6]

10 minutes ago, MBR said:

And what does that have to do with anything?

 

EPTT is already out there and is an accepted standard unlike Zello.

Eptt is based on cellular network, same goes for Zello.   Plan on cellular network going down, plan for alternative methods.

[MBR 224]

2 minutes ago, Dugindog said:

Eptt is based on cellular network, same goes for Zello.   Plan on cellular network going down, plan for alternative methods.

Then why bring up Zello?

 

And I wouldn't plan on the cellular network going down, we have a whole lot of redundancy built into it, traffic may be prioritized, but short of ZBO, it will remain up and working. 

 

 

[Dugindog 6]

1 minute ago, MBR said:

Then why bring up Zello?

 

And I wouldn't plan on the cellular network going down, we have a whole lot of redundancy built into it, traffic may be prioritized, but short of ZBO, it will remain up and working. 

 

 

Main reason for a platform like Zello, it is not tied to a specific provider.  I agree the likelihood of the cellular network going down is nearly zero.  

[Skillet 1,724]

6 minutes ago, Dugindog said:

I agree the likelihood of the cellular network going down is nearly zero.  

 

It's all really dependent on where you live and the situation. We had a tornado wipe out a few towers and it took them about a year to get them replaced. Likewise shutting down a tower or control node in an urban area is pretty easy once you gain access to it. 

[MBR 224]

2 minutes ago, Skillet said:

 

It's all really dependent on where you live and the situation. We had a tornado wipe out a few towers and it took them about a year to get them replaced.

 

Storms are of course a major problem, the solution for wireless is Cellular On Wheels (COWS) and Cellular On Light Trucks (COLTS).

 

After Wilma we lost 23% or so of the wireless network and maybe 70% of the wireline network, it was common to find everything, copper, fiber, Comcast on the ground.

 

 

Wireless was a priority and easier to restore so within a few days that number dropped to 18% using a combination of gensets for Microsites and COWS to fill in, wireline was also improving as gensets where deployed out to the field to restore Remote Terminals.

 

 

While wireline took a real hit.

 

Just over week later service was being restored.

 

 

Utilities are quite capable of handling disasters.

 

2 minutes ago, Skillet said:

 

Likewise shutting down a tower or control node in an urban area is pretty easy once you gain access to it.

Na, it's not quite that simple, shutting down a tower will do little to take down the network and taking out a MTSO, ha, good luck there, most are built to be nuke proof and you are not getting inside very easy at all. 

 

More so when there are armed technicians inside.    

2 minutes ago, Skillet said:

 

 

 

[Skillet 1,724]

@ MBR I won't get into the TTPS for dealing with the armed techs or defending nodes and towers. One thing to consider is post disaster is usually a little bit more permissive environment than what post widespread conflict is going to be. Those mobile systems are probably going to be be a high priority asset.  That is going to take a fair amount of manpower to secure effectively. 2 guys may not cut it when a mob comes after it. Especially if the power is down and they figure out some of them can make electricity. 

 

"Na, it's not quite that simple, shutting down a tower will do little to take down the network and taking out a MTSO, ha, good luck there, most are built to be nuke proof and you are not getting inside very easy at all.  "

 

Yeah, I've been inside the shelters at the towers (we run a repeater on one of the towers locally).  The towers are especially ultra vulnerable.  2 guys with a decent truck and basic heavy demo tools could make pretty short work of one.

 

Defending those assets would actually be perfect mission for small militia groups, freeing up other security forces and LEOs to deal with the cornucopia of stupidity going on elsewhere.

[MBR 224]

17 minutes ago, Skillet said:

Yeah, I've been inside the shelters at the towers (we run a repeater on one of the towers locally).  The towers are especially ultra vulnerable.  2 guys with a decent truck and basic heavy demo tools could make pretty short work of one.

 

Defending those assets would actually be perfect mission for small militia groups, freeing up other security forces and LEOs to deal with the cornucopia of stupidity going on elsewhere.

The question is which one would you defend?

 

We have somewhere around 3800 towers in my turf, (two counties) do you know which ones should be defended?

 

And the manpower to make that much damage would quickly attract unneeded attention.

Edited September 14 by MBR

[Skillet 1,724]

8 minutes ago, MBR said:

The question is which one would you defend?

 

We have somewhere around 3800 towers in my turf, (two counties) do you know which ones should be defended?

 

And the manpower to make that much damage would quickly attract unneeded attention.

 

That's where the CVRT analysis comes in. 2 guys in a truck wouldn't attract much attention around here, Most of the towers out here are in the boonies and pretty isolated.

[Ranger_jay 10]

I've been working on a mobile DMR network with DMR radios, I do have access and permission to use a commercial license if needed. The benefits of DMR are pretty good by using multiple talkgroups and time slots on the same frequency without anyone getting interrupted. I prefer to stay off of MURS, for one, its going to be heavily used and if someone was up to no good, they could monitor it easily. 

 

As for the Baofeng radios like the UV5, i'm not a big fan... you might as well use a bullhorn. 

[MBR 224]

11 minutes ago, Ranger_jay said:

I've been working on a mobile DMR network with DMR radios, I do have access and permission to use a commercial license if needed. The benefits of DMR are pretty good by using multiple talkgroups and time slots on the same frequency without anyone getting interrupted. I prefer to stay off of MURS, for one, its going to be heavily used and if someone was up to no good, they could monitor it easily. 

 

As for the Baofeng radios like the UV5, i'm not a big fan... you might as well use a bullhorn. 

What type of commercial license do you have access to?

[Ranger_jay 10]

Just now, MBR said:

What type of commercial license do you have access to?

Business commercial 

[Loren-USAPatriot 44]

On 7/21/2020 at 1:51 PM, MBR said:

However keep in mind while MURS can be used for all operations Ham frequencies cannot be used for any form of commercial activity. 

 

Disaster relief communications legal for Ham frequencies, coordination of Militia operations probably not.

 

A Militia would be much better served with a Part 90 License that allows any form of legal for, or not for profit communications and output powers up to 110 watts is allowed, versus 2 watts which has very limited range.

 

Also Part 90 communications can be scrambled and or codes used, which is strictly forbidden on Ham frequencies. 

 

 

Something I would consider is DMR. They have digital encryption. I might also recommend becoming MARS certified. I know I have to re-certify because I haven't be on HF for a while and 5 hours a month are required on HF. Just an FYI>

[Ranger_jay 10]

I have worked a lot with DMR, people think it's really intimidating because of all the different things that go with it, non hams will watch the ham youtube videos and think, screw this! Over heard the arguments and been apart of it. If its militia used, you have it easy... I would be willing to help units if they would like to discover the benefits of DMR. 

[ComKat-LH 24]

18 hours ago, Loren-USAPatriot said:

Something I would consider is DMR. They have digital encryption. I might also recommend becoming MARS certified. I know I have to re-certify because I haven't be on HF for a while and 5 hours a month are required on HF. Just an FYI>

Hey guys. Jumping in on this discussion as building a unified com plan is my goal for us.

 

The group I am working with is going to try out some DMR radios. We will use the analog GMRS channels for UHF coms when we train, but the plan fully leverages encrypted DMR on both UHF and VHF should SHTF.

 

We have to remember that should we have to fight an opfor, the last thing the govt would be worried about is dishing out FCC fines.

 

Opsec is the number one priority in those situations.

 

At work. Will return shortly.

[MBR 224]

40 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

We have to remember that should we have to fight an opfor, the last thing the govt would be worried about is dishing out FCC fines.

However more than likely you will be using radios during training and you need to run legal.

 

The means on the proper frequencies and properly licensed if required.

 

Failing to do so can be very expensive.

[ComKat-LH 24]

12 minutes ago, MBR said:

However more than likely you will be using radios during training and you need to run legal.

 

The means on the proper frequencies and properly licensed if required.

 

Failing to do so can be very expensive.

Yes. That's what I said originally. GMRS analog when we train.

[ComKat-LH 24]

And MURS

[ComKat-LH 24]

17 hours ago, Ranger_jay said:

I have worked a lot with DMR, people think it's really intimidating because of all the different things that go with it, non hams will watch the ham youtube videos and think, screw this! Over heard the arguments and been apart of it. If its militia used, you have it easy... I would be willing to help units if they would like to discover the benefits of DMR. 

Same here, Ranger. I think we would all benefit from having a unified com plan so we can coordinate in the case of SHTF without internet or phone.

 

Short range wise, DMR works fantastically. I was talking with another ham in our group, and we agreed that for medium/long range coms CB may be the best option for militias due to its affordability, and license free operation.

 

HAM frequencies can be used by the hams in the group for the long range, but we want something accessible to everyone that can be easily adopted.

 

DMR is not easy for new uses, but if we could create a code plug that is distributed to the com guys across each militia, we might be able to pull it off.

 

We chose the following radios to test out our plan. The BTECH 6x2, dual band, analog+DMR, GPS with APRS for the group leaders/team leaders, and the Radioddity GD-73A for individual squad members. Both are DMR and analog, allowing for legal operation during peacetime, and can leverage DMR if necessary.

 

Was planning on experimenting with the BTECH's APRS features for real time squad location, since short data transmissions are legal on GMRS. Obviously it would take place off the traditional APRS network.

[MBR 224]

11 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

Yes. That's what I said originally. GMRS analog when we train.

You train with what you are going to work with, changing equipment at the last minute is neither practical nor wise.

 

 

[MBR 224]

12 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

And MURS

For all intents and purposes MURS is useless.

[ComKat-LH 24]

My biggest reasoning for giving the DMR option is that most of these radical groups these days use GMRS radios and baofengs. They have the ability to intercept our communications with very little effort.

 

Our groups have been kicked off of social media and other apps, hindering our organization. I am sure that we aren't to far from this website being targeted, either. Yet the leftist groups enjoy the use of those tools. That's a huge advantage for them! We need to leverage any advantage we can in preparation for a conflict.

[ComKat-LH 24]

3 minutes ago, MBR said:

You train with what you are going to work with, changing equipment at the last minute is neither practical nor wise.

 

 

The equipment is the same. Exactly the same radios.

[ComKat-LH 24]

3 minutes ago, MBR said:

For all intents and purposes MURS is useless.

Explain.

[MBR 224]

1 minute ago, ComKat-LH said:

Same here, Ranger. I think we would all benefit from having a unified com plan so we can coordinate in the case of SHTF without internet or phone.

 

Short range wise, DMR works fantastically. I was talking with another ham in our group, and we agreed that for medium/long range coms CB may be the best option for militias due to its affordability, and license free operation.

For handheld usage CB is useless.

1 minute ago, ComKat-LH said:

 

HAM frequencies can be used by the hams in the group for the long range, but we want something accessible to everyone that can be easily adopted.

 

DMR is not easy for new uses, but if we could create a code plug that is distributed to the com guys across each militia, we might be able to pull it off.

To the end user DMR is no different than analog and the last thing you want is each user doing their own programming, that's asking for trouble.

1 minute ago, ComKat-LH said:

Was planning on experimenting with the BTECH's APRS features for real time squad location, since short data transmissions are legal on GMRS. Obviously it would take place off the traditional APRS network.

It also makes it real handy for those who don't like you, to locate you.