Communication (HAM)

[MBR 224]

3 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

My biggest reasoning for giving the DMR option is that most of these radical groups these days use GMRS radios and baofengs. They have the ability to intercept our communications with very little effort.

Which is yet another reason to utilize lesser known frequencies.

 

 

3 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

 

Our groups have been kicked off of social media and other apps, hindering our organization. I am sure that we aren't to far from this website being targeted, either. Yet the leftist groups enjoy the use of those tools. That's a huge advantage for them! We need to leverage any advantage we can in preparation for a conflict.

Then set up a hosted server and run a mail list.

[MBR 224]

3 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

Explain.

Low power, limited channel selection, and modulation requirements that many radios cannot utilize.

[MBR 224]

8 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

The equipment is the same. Exactly the same radios.

Then why are you changing from analog to digital?

[ComKat-LH 24]

Just now, MBR said:

For handheld usage CB is useless.

To the end user DMR is no different than analog and the last thing you want is each user doing their own programming, that's asking for trouble.

It also makes it real handy for those who don't like you, to locate you.

Are you reading anything i am saying???

 

1. I mentioned CB for medium to long range useage. THE WHOLE POINT of having that is for base station and mobile radios that can reach out to longer distances. Why would i use handheld CB for if i am sitting here talking about portable DMR radios??? CB, because of it operating on a much lower frequency, can extend communication lines much further tan UHF or VHF. We use different frequencies depending on what we need them to do.

 

2. THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT. For the end user, it matters not if they are using DMR or Digital. What matters is who can intercept it and when. During training, analog is fine to be used because who cares if somebody intercepts it, and its important to stay legal. The radios i am using can switch between them simply by changing which channel they are using. NO impact to the end user. As far as somebody messing with programming, its pretty easy to set a password on a radio to prevent the end user from messing with its programming. Ever do any commercial DMR?

 

3. In this whole discussion about DMR and encryption, do you really think that I would go to the effort of using encrypted DMR and turn around and use analog APRS? That makes a whole lot of sense.

[MBR 224]

Just now, ComKat-LH said:

Are you reading anything i am saying???

 

1. I mentioned CB for medium to long range useage. THE WHOLE POINT of having that is for base station and mobile radios that can reach out to longer distances. Why would i use handheld CB for if i am sitting here talking about portable DMR radios??? CB, because of it operating on a much lower frequency, can extend communication lines much further tan UHF or VHF. We use different frequencies depending on what we need them to do.

And requires a rather large antenna to work properly, second it's either SSB or AM, which is subject to atmospheric interference, think thunderstorms.

 

Just now, ComKat-LH said:

 

2. THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT. For the end user, it matters not if they are using DMR or Digital. What matters is who can intercept it and when. During training, analog is fine to be used because who cares if somebody intercepts it, and its important to stay legal. The radios i am using can switch between them simply by changing which channel they are using. NO impact to the end user. As far as somebody messing with programming, its pretty easy to set a password on a radio to prevent the end user from messing with its programming.

Then there is no sense in swapping from analog to DMR.

Just now, ComKat-LH said:

Ever do any commercial DMR?

Yea I have built and maintain a number of MOTOTRBO system in South and South West Florida.

Just now, ComKat-LH said:

 

3. In this whole discussion about DMR and encryption, do you really think that I would go to the effort of using encrypted DMR and turn around and use analog APRS? That makes a whole lot of sense.

 DMR is not encrypted, it's digital and can be decoded by a basic scanner. 

[ComKat-LH 24]

4 minutes ago, MBR said:

Low power, limited channel selection, and modulation requirements that many radios cannot utilize.

2 channels on MURS can use up to 20kHz of channel space. Digital modes can be used on MURS, and if you use TDMA, that gives 4 channels of VHF space for legal operation.

 

10 minutes ago, MBR said:

Which is yet another reason to utilize lesser known frequencies.

 

 

Then set up a hosted server and run a mail list.

What legal lesser known frequencies do you know of??? Also, you are missing the distinction of training frequencies/modes, and modes used in the case of a serious scenario. It doesn't matter if we use GMRS or MURS in regards to interception if we use encrypted DMR in a real scenario.

 

And a mail list. MK lets just assume we have internet access. Lets hedge our bets on that. Let me know how that works out.

8 minutes ago, MBR said:

Then why are you changing from analog to digital?

Because we cant legally use digital on GMRS frequencies for training. If there was an actual event, where the government's resources are exhausted and we are the last line of defense against an enemy, we will use DMR on GMRS to prevent interception. its pretty dang easy to listen into analog coms on a cheap Chinese radio.

 

The radios we are testing have BOTH analog and digital.

[MBR 224]

8 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

2 channels on MURS can use up to 20kHz of channel space. Digital modes can be used on MURS, and if you use TDMA, that gives 4 channels of VHF space for legal operation.

And guess what common modulation splits are 25/12.5.

Quote

 

What legal lesser known frequencies do you know of??? Also, you are missing the distinction of training frequencies/modes, and modes used in the case of a serious scenario. It doesn't matter if we use GMRS or MURS in regards to interception if we use encrypted DMR in a real scenario.

Depending on the band at least a dozen or so and again DMR is not encrypted, nor can it be with any low end radio.

Quote

And a mail list. MK lets just assume we have internet access. Lets hedge our bets on that. Let me know how that works out.

You are now changing the subject.

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Because we cant legally use digital on GMRS frequencies for training. If there was an actual event, where the government's resources are exhausted and we are the last line of defense against an enemy, we will use DMR on GMRS to prevent interception. its pretty dang easy to listen into analog coms on a cheap Chinese radio.

Sorry it doesn't work that way, if I can get within a half mile of you I will soon have all of the frequencies and talk groups you are using and then can either monitor or shut down your comms.

Quote

 

The radios we are testing have BOTH analog and digital.

You have stated that a few times now, try something new.

Edited September 16 by MBR

[MBR 224]

1 minute ago, MBR said:

?

 

Edited September 16 by MBR

[ComKat-LH 24]

2 minutes ago, MBR said:

And requires a rather large antenna to work properly, second it's either SSB or AM, which is subject to atmospheric interference, think thunderstorms.

 

Then there is no sense in swapping from analog to DMR.

Yea I have built and maintain a number of MOTOTRBO system in South and South West Florida.

 DMR is not encrypted, it's digital and can be decoded by a basic scanner. 

A large antenna... that is your reasoning for saying its worthless? Equipment is easily accessible, easily set up, and even though there is the chance of interference, its a great backup system should more traditional methods, like cellphones and internet, fail.

 

I have no idea how to better explain this to you, regarding there being "no sense" of swapping to dmr. The only thing i can think that you can be thinking is that swapping to DMR requires reprogramming. That is a false assumption. The radios can be programmed to use different modes for different groups. Therefor, we have a set number of channels used for training that use analog, and some set aside that use digital.

 

Man, you are telling me that you have installed mototrbo systems and never encountered encryption? DMR by itself is not encrypted, but AES encryption can be applied to the audio in a lot of modern DMR radios. Its as simple as enabling it in the firmware and creating a key. Basic scanner... come on man.

[ComKat-LH 24]

7 minutes ago, MBR said:

And guess what common modulation splits are 25/12.5.

Depending on the band at least a dozen or so and again DMR is not encrypted, nor can it be with any low end radio.

Go ahead.

Sorry it doesn't work that way, if I can get within a half mile of you I will soon have all of the frequencies and talk groups you are using and then can either monitor or shut down your comms.

You have stated that a few times now, try something new.

 

Ill give you the modulation splits. Was not aware of that.

 

YES, DMR can be encrypted. You are wrong on that.

 

Yeah im sure you could jam us all day, but YOU CAN DO THAT WITH ANY RADIO SOLUTION. that does not matter at all in this discussion. Unless you have come up with some unnjammeable, uninterceptable, magical radio solution, that point is worthless.  Plus, you would need special skills and probably equipment to do all that, and all i need to intercept your analog coms is a bubble pack radio from walmart.

 

Are you just refusing to accept that a radio can be analog and digital in the same package?

Edited September 16 by ComKat-LH

[MBR 224]

4 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

A large antenna... that is your reasoning for saying its worthless? Equipment is easily accessible, easily set up, and even though there is the chance of interference, its a great backup system should more traditional methods, like cellphones and internet, fail.

So you are going to setup a antenna that is 8.6' high with 8.75' radials?

4 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

 

I have no idea how to better explain this to you, regarding there being "no sense" of swapping to dmr. The only thing i can think that you can be thinking is that swapping to DMR requires reprogramming. That is a false assumption. The radios can be programmed to use different modes for different groups. Therefor, we have a set number of channels used for training that use analog, and some set aside that use digital.

But why?

4 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

 

Man, you are telling me that you have installed mototrbo systems and never encountered encryption? DMR by itself is not encrypted, but AES encryption can be applied to the audio in a lot of modern DMR radios. Its as simple as enabling it in the firmware and creating a key. Basic scanner... come on man.

And which one of the radios you are using has built in encryption and how are you going to push out the keys or stun a unit that goes missing?  

[MBR 224]

3 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

 

Ill give you the modulation splits. Was not aware of that.

 

YES, DMR can be encrypted. You are wrong on that.

Do you have the units that can do that or are they just DMR?

3 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

 

Yeah im sure you could jam us all day, but YOU CAN DO THAT WITH ANY RADIO SOLUTION. that does not matter at all in this discussion. Unless you have come up with some unnjammeable, uninterceptable, magical radio solution, that point is worthless.  Plus, you would need special skills and probably equipment to do all that, and all i need to intercept your analog coms is a bubble pack radio from walmart.

Not if you cannot find them and your Walmart radio cannot. 

 

3 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

 

Are you just refusing to accept that a radio can be analog and digital in the same package?

No that's easy, but once again and I will type this slowly, DMR is not encrypted.  

[ComKat-LH 24]

23 minutes ago, MBR said:

So you are going to setup a antenna that is 8.6' high with 8.75' radials?

But why?

And which one of the radios you are using has built in encryption and how are you going to push out the keys or stun a unit that goes missing?  

I don't have to use a ground plane antenna.

 

Both the radios i listed use the same AES256 encryption. Code plugs are password protected. Keys are in the code plug. As far as stun/kill, the radios support that. I understand the problem of the radio being out of range, but in the case of a lost radio, we can have spare code plugs that use a different key. Each radio would have to be reprogrammed, but i dont know of a better solution at this time.

 

As far as the walmart radios, I don't know what frequencies you are using that we can distribute to unlicensed folks. Please PM me if you know something i don't in that regard. Yes, i get that you can use another frequency during a conflict, but if you are running analog, what is the point? with an SDR its pretty easy to hunt down RF.

 

I know we are having an intense discussion, but we are both fighting towards the same goal.

 

Alright, let me specify more clearly. The encryption part with these radios happens between the conversion of the analog audio to digital bits. The encryption method alters the amplitude and the frequency of the audio in a way that can be decoded when the same key is used. Sure, the actual DMR data is not encrypted, but the audio carried on that data is. If you listened to an encrypted signal carried by DMR it would be garbage. Thats the type of encryption i am using. Sorry i was not more clear.

Edited September 16 by ComKat-LH

[MBR 224]

8 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

I don't have to use a ground plane antenna.

If not then what?

8 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

 

Both the radios i listed use the same AES256 encryption. Code plugs are password protected. Keys are in the code plug. As far as stun/kill, the radios support that. I understand the problem of the radio being out of range, but in the case of a lost radio, we can have spare code plugs that use a different key. Each radio would have to be reprogrammed, but i dont know of a better solution at this time.

And what models are they, unless I missed it I don't see where you mentioned them?

8 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

 

 

[ComKat-LH 24]

35 minutes ago, MBR said:

And guess what common modulation splits are 25/12.5.

 

I need you to explain that to me. My understanding is that DMR uses 12.5kHz of bandwidth. Its not a split frequency space because it uses TDMA. Obviously, you have more experience in the engineering side, so please explain what i am missing.

[ComKat-LH 24]

2 minutes ago, MBR said:

If not then what?

And what models are they, unless I missed it I don't see where you mentioned them?

 

BTECH 6x2. Same radio as the Bridgecom systems one, different firmware.

 

and the Radioddity GD-73A. Both support AES encryption.

[EricB1956 50]

This is turning into a very interesting thread, please continue.

[MBR 224]

1 hour ago, ComKat-LH said:

I need you to explain that to me. My understanding is that DMR uses 12.5kHz of bandwidth. Its not a split frequency space because it uses TDMA. Obviously, you have more experience in the engineering side, so please explain what i am missing.

That is correct, the reason I call it a split is the FCC narrowbanding rules have split the old standard 25 into 12.5 and soon it will be 6.25, allowing for more channels per band.

 

Hams are not yet effected by that ruling, but would be wise to keep up with it though I doubt they will, when it comes to communications they are a strange group of people.  

[MBR 224]

30 minutes ago, EricB1956 said:

This is turning into a very interesting thread, please continue.

If you need more popcorn me know, I buy it by the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16 by MBR

[EricB1956 50]

33 minutes ago, MBR said:

Hams are not yet effected by that ruling, but would be wise to keep up with it though I doubt they will, when it comes to communications they are a strange group of people.  

Yes, yes we are. But you're right, it would be smart to keep an eye on everything the FCC proposes and turns into law, because one day it will trickle down.

[Recon Prepper 39]

3 hours ago, ComKat-LH said:

BTECH 6x2. Same radio as the Bridgecom systems one, different firmware.

 

and the Radioddity GD-73A. Both support AES encryption.

Ive scanned over the radios instruction manual and its not very good but its Chinese. That said I couldn't find where it list the types of encryption it has????? If it has AES256 I would be shocked. That is usually an add on to most radio systems and its expensive. Motorola is crazy just to add aes256 to their radios. Can you or anyone else show me where it says what the types of encryption it has available????    Other various Chinese dm radios Ive seen are 32 bit at best. And its not Aes. They really wont say what type it is other than 32 bit. Most radios if they have a known encryption like AES128 or AES256 they shout it from the rooftops because its important and a big selling feature.

Edited September 16 by Recon Prepper

[MBR 224]

13 minutes ago, Recon Prepper said:

Ive scanned over the radios instruction manual and its not very good but its Chinese. That said I couldn't find where it list the types of encryption it has????? If it has AES256 I would be shocked. That is usually an add on to most radio systems and its expensive. Motorola is crazy just to add aes256 to their radios. Can you or anyone else show me where it says what the types of encryption it has available????    Other various Chinese dm radios Ive seen are 32 bit at best. And its not Aes. They really wont say what type it is other than 32 bit. Most radios if they have a known encryption like AES128 or AES256 they shout it from the rooftops because its important and a big selling feature.

They mention encryption in the Radioddity GD-73A manual but it appears to be a DMR talk group not actually digital encryption. 

Edited September 16 by MBR

[ComKat-LH 24]

2 hours ago, MBR said:

That is correct, the reason I call it a split is the FCC narrowbanding rules have split the old standard 25 into 12.5 and soon it will be 6.25, allowing for more channels per band.

 

Hams are not yet effected by that ruling, but would be wise to keep up with it though I doubt they will, when it comes to communications they are a strange group of people.  

Well unless they handed down a whitepaper yesterday, MURS is not yet effected by narrowbanding.

 

 

I literally just got both radios in the mail, so i will tell you first hand if they/how they work.

 

Peace.

[ComKat-LH 24]

Here goes nothing

[MBR 224]

23 minutes ago, ComKat-LH said:

Well unless they handed down a whitepaper yesterday, MURS is not yet effected by narrowbanding.

MURS is Part 95 not Part 90 and was not affected by the narrowbanding rule making, however 4 of the MURS channels are narrowbanded, while 2 that came from Part 90 are not.  

 

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Edited September 16 by MBR